[MD] Step One

[John Carl]

Hello Dan,

I missed a whole bunch more to comment upon and reply to.


> Dan:
> This discussion is centered around the MOQ. I write stories myself and
> share them from time to time with the group but it is my hope that
> others may see the value there and how it pertains to the MOQ. I am
> not an autobiographer. And I realize someone reading my stories may
> not understand that, just as someone reading Robert Pirsig's writings
> may take a lot of what he writes as truth. I recall Mary getting upset
> that he would have an affair with a bar lady while he was still
> married. And yet he told me himself that he was Lila, and the boat,
> and the rest of the story as well. That's what I am driving at. You
> are the story. How does your life pertain the MOQ.  You. Not the
> people or places in your life. Do you see what I mean? I know I am
> explaining myself poorly but it is a difficult subject.
>


Explaining yourself poorly, is not "Quality in thought and expression" dan.
Are you admitting to some clowning of your own?

And what you call "a difficult subject" does not seem so to me, because I've
been given this amazing intellectual tool known as "the MoQ".  Which has
more blades than swiss army knife and more attachments than a ronco
blender.  In the scenario of my story and the moq, I understand exactly how
they relate and interrelate, but the whole story takes a while and I can
understand how you can't quite understand.  But if you give me specific
cues, directions where you suffer confusion, I can answer, interpret, make
it all perfectly clear.  Trust me.  And ask.




> Dan:
>
> I don't believe in hero-worship. Still, I don't believe it is right to
> disrespect people either. But that's just me. It is how my father
> raised me.
>


It's hard to see your logic, dan.  What could be more respectful than
silence?

Gets boring after a while.

Ok, how about a parrot?

Nice!  But... after a longer while, boring again.

I know!   A smarter parrot!

dan, just tell me what you want me to be, and I'll seriously contemplate it
for at least a minute.  In the meantime, in the infamous words of that great
philosopher Popey, I yam what I am.



> Dan:
>
> I am not sure what you mean by 'shortcut intellectualizations of
> deeper meanings.'


There are vast number of thoughts swirling around every decision, but we
must act and decide upon only one.  We use intellect for that process of
deciding, unless we're irrational beings, and what we come with I call "a
shortcut intellectualization of deeper meanings".  Sometimes we're so
ambivalent about a choice, that we'll actually term it a "rationalization"
but really, when you think about it, it's all rationalization.





> But let me try and tell you where I am coming from
> and why I quoted that bit from ZMM on holiness. Take my work on LILA'S
> CHILD as an example. Despite Marsha's sarcasm, I don't think anyone
> who has not been through such an experience can appreciate the deeper
> meaning of setting a goal so high that it is impossible to acheive and
> then going ahead and acheiving it. Like Phaedrus and his holy quest...
> he looked at it as an opportunity for personal growth and experience.
> But that's not what it is about. The holy quest is about giving
> oneself up entirely to something you neither understand nor know the
> outcome. It is like Carlos Castenada jumping into the abyss so dark
> and deep, having to gather the totality of himself without even
> knowing what that is, and just letting go.
>
>
Carlos Castenada the big fraud is not my favorite guy, so let's just leave
him aside for a moment and phocus on phaedrus and his holy quest.

Because I think about that a lot dan.  I really do.  I think of sitting in
the corner, letting everything go to pieces, reaching for something, what is
it?  and then it finally "The quality which he never betrayed, comes to him
at last."  Something about that "never betrayed" that really rings my bell.
I contemplate it often.  Loyalty.

I may clown around as my style, dan, but I can be quite serious about some
things.  Loyalty is one of those things.  I respect yours.


> There are no shortcuts to such an experience and one never knows when
> such an opportunity will arise. Thinking about it only takes one
> further away, not closer. So we seem to disagree on a very fundamental
> level when it comes it holiness, which a person find a bit surprising
> knowing you are the more religious of the two of us. But the holiness
> that I speak of has nothing to do with religion. Perhaps it is like
> reading about zen and practicing zen... something along those lines.
> It seems many contributors here are well-read when it comes to Eastern
> philosophy but few actually put that knowledge into practice. Zen
> isn't something a person can read about. It just isn't. I don't care
> how many books a person reads, they will never know about zen in an
> intellectual way.
>
>
I agree.  I also think it's hard to judge, in an intellectual way.



>
> Dan:
> Now see, you don't get it. It wasn't that he didn't care. He did. He
> just didn't care in the right way. That kind of caring isn't something
> one thinks about. One feels it deep down, as if life itself depended
> on it.
>
>
Well I'll grant you are more knowing than I on the subject, having spent
those years and all.  But in my opinion, all caring is the same and life
depends on each and every part of that caring, each and every moment of
every day.





> >
> > And some people stop climbing,  because the same value to be found at the
> > top of the mountain, can be found in the heart of the moment - no effort
> > needed.  So why climb?
>
> Dan:
> That I cannot answer for you. You have to answer that for yourself.
>
>

Exactly.  I agree completely.  Which I have been, and you don't like the way
I've been doing it.  Like I said, it seems like a double-bind you've got
going here.



Dan:

> Life is a holy journey. That is what the pilgrimages are all about. No
> one has to write about it or think about it or be told about it. And
> of course no one knows what is going to happen in advance. That is our
> Western way. The sun rises every day.
>
>

It rises in the Eastern way.  It sets in the west.


>
> Dan:
> No. Ego-climbing is personal gain. It is me, me, me.
>
>

Which is also putting me in a double-bind.  For to accuse me requires one of
two responses : defending myself - which proves you are right.  Or admitting
you are right, which also proves you are right.  I guess I got no choice but
to admit you are right.




> Dan:
> Exactly. But one doesn't have to tell anyone anything when it comes to
> reverence. That is beyond social and intellectual values into Dynamic
> realms.
>
>

Here's where we just come from too different backgrounds, I guess. I've got
lots of experience being told to be more reverent - to revere that which is
presented for my adulation and worship, and I don't much care for it and I
don't imagine anyone does, not even the recipients of said reverence.


> Dan:
> I would have to read more than just a few quotes, of course, and that
> type of reading doesn't interest me at all. I'd never get through it
> though. I am not a philosopher nor do I read it... unless I have
> trouble sleeping, then it helps lull me.
>
>
Now who's clowning?  I pretty much go along with the idea that on a forum
called "metaphysics" that philosophy is a good thing dan.  If you aren't
going to follow any philosophical discussions, then I can see we are going
to have a hard time conversing.  I mean, I'm not hard core or anything, but
I am extremely interested and if you're gonna get all reverential about
Phaedrus's pursuit, I think you oughta drink more coffee and try and get
through that stuff because that's what he was pursuing, after all.  It's a
philosophical ghost, not a spiritual one.



> Dan:
>
> Well, sure. In a certain context, I agree. But the story has to have
> some value, some meaning. Otherwise it is just so much clowning around
> and the joke is on you... in my opinion, of course,
>
>

I don't care if the joke is on me.  As long as the audience is entertained,
my work here is done.

I have no ego.  It's why I'm better than everyone else.

And yes, that was a joke, dan.

Take care,

John






> Thank you,
>
> Dan
>
> >
> > John
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