[MD] Step One

[Dan Glover]

Hello everyone

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 6:29 PM, John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Dan,
>
> I missed a whole bunch more to comment upon and reply to.
>
>
>> Dan:
>> This discussion is centered around the MOQ. I write stories myself and
>> share them from time to time with the group but it is my hope that
>> others may see the value there and how it pertains to the MOQ. I am
>> not an autobiographer. And I realize someone reading my stories may
>> not understand that, just as someone reading Robert Pirsig's writings
>> may take a lot of what he writes as truth. I recall Mary getting upset
>> that he would have an affair with a bar lady while he was still
>> married. And yet he told me himself that he was Lila, and the boat,
>> and the rest of the story as well. That's what I am driving at. You
>> are the story. How does your life pertain the MOQ.  You. Not the
>> people or places in your life. Do you see what I mean? I know I am
>> explaining myself poorly but it is a difficult subject.
>>
>
>
> Explaining yourself poorly, is not "Quality in thought and expression" dan.
> Are you admitting to some clowning of your own?

Dan:
Well, you are not getting what I am saying so I am being polite by
pointing the fault at myself.

>
> And what you call "a difficult subject" does not seem so to me, because I've
> been given this amazing intellectual tool known as "the MoQ".  Which has
> more blades than swiss army knife and more attachments than a ronco
> blender.  In the scenario of my story and the moq, I understand exactly how
> they relate and interrelate, but the whole story takes a while and I can
> understand how you can't quite understand.  But if you give me specific
> cues, directions where you suffer confusion, I can answer, interpret, make
> it all perfectly clear.  Trust me.  And ask.

Dan:
I don't know what you mean here. What story? Your life story? Your
problems and tribulations? Like I said, everyone has problems. I have
mine too. But I don't think it is all that wise to trot them out in
front of everyone.

>
>
>
>
>> Dan:
>>
>> I don't believe in hero-worship. Still, I don't believe it is right to
>> disrespect people either. But that's just me. It is how my father
>> raised me.
>>
>
>
> It's hard to see your logic, dan.  What could be more respectful than
> silence?
>
> Gets boring after a while.
>
> Ok, how about a parrot?
>
> Nice!  But... after a longer while, boring again.
>
> I know!   A smarter parrot!
>
> dan, just tell me what you want me to be, and I'll seriously contemplate it
> for at least a minute.  In the meantime, in the infamous words of that great
> philosopher Popey, I yam what I am.

Dan:
How about an intelligent conversation?

>
>
>
>> Dan:
>>
>> I am not sure what you mean by 'shortcut intellectualizations of
>> deeper meanings.'
>
>
> There are vast number of thoughts swirling around every decision, but we
> must act and decide upon only one.  We use intellect for that process of
> deciding, unless we're irrational beings, and what we come with I call "a
> shortcut intellectualization of deeper meanings".  Sometimes we're so
> ambivalent about a choice, that we'll actually term it a "rationalization"
> but really, when you think about it, it's all rationalization.

Dan:
Years ago there was a fellow here who went by the name of Roger
Parker... a wonderful guy. We shared many discussions here and on Doug
Renselle's Quantonics site. Anyway, he likened our choice set in life
to a chess game. I stated that in my experience, there are many
opening moves in chess that can be made, but only a select few that
will allow a player a chance at winning... only  the best moves. Life
is like that too. Sure, there are a vast number of thoughts involved
in every decision, but there are only a select few that are good
thoughts.

If we are irrational beings, we won't survive long. How could we?

>
>
>
>
>
>> But let me try and tell you where I am coming from
>> and why I quoted that bit from ZMM on holiness. Take my work on LILA'S
>> CHILD as an example. Despite Marsha's sarcasm, I don't think anyone
>> who has not been through such an experience can appreciate the deeper
>> meaning of setting a goal so high that it is impossible to acheive and
>> then going ahead and acheiving it. Like Phaedrus and his holy quest...
>> he looked at it as an opportunity for personal growth and experience.
>> But that's not what it is about. The holy quest is about giving
>> oneself up entirely to something you neither understand nor know the
>> outcome. It is like Carlos Castenada jumping into the abyss so dark
>> and deep, having to gather the totality of himself without even
>> knowing what that is, and just letting go.
>>
>>
> Carlos Castenada the big fraud is not my favorite guy, so let's just leave
> him aside for a moment and phocus on phaedrus and his holy quest.

Dan:

That's fine.

>
> Because I think about that a lot dan.  I really do.  I think of sitting in
> the corner, letting everything go to pieces, reaching for something, what is
> it?  and then it finally "The quality which he never betrayed, comes to him
> at last."  Something about that "never betrayed" that really rings my bell.
> I contemplate it often.  Loyalty.
>
> I may clown around as my style, dan, but I can be quite serious about some
> things.  Loyalty is one of those things.  I respect yours.

Dan:
Then perhaps you understand when you insult people like Robert Pirsig
that I am going to kick up a fuss about it.




>
>
>> There are no shortcuts to such an experience and one never knows when
>> such an opportunity will arise. Thinking about it only takes one
>> further away, not closer. So we seem to disagree on a very fundamental
>> level when it comes it holiness, which a person find a bit surprising
>> knowing you are the more religious of the two of us. But the holiness
>> that I speak of has nothing to do with religion. Perhaps it is like
>> reading about zen and practicing zen... something along those lines.
>> It seems many contributors here are well-read when it comes to Eastern
>> philosophy but few actually put that knowledge into practice. Zen
>> isn't something a person can read about. It just isn't. I don't care
>> how many books a person reads, they will never know about zen in an
>> intellectual way.
>>
>>
> I agree.  I also think it's hard to judge, in an intellectual way.
>
>
>
>>
>> Dan:
>> Now see, you don't get it. It wasn't that he didn't care. He did. He
>> just didn't care in the right way. That kind of caring isn't something
>> one thinks about. One feels it deep down, as if life itself depended
>> on it.
>>
>>
> Well I'll grant you are more knowing than I on the subject, having spent
> those years and all.  But in my opinion, all caring is the same and life
> depends on each and every part of that caring, each and every moment of
> every day.

Dan:
But it's not! Any yahoo can claim that they care and they are probably
right. But there are deeper ways of caring... ways that can't be
explained or written about. You have to feel it deep down. No one can
tell you what to feel. No one can say the feeling is right or wrong.
You just know!

>
>
>
>
>
>> >
>> > And some people stop climbing,  because the same value to be found at the
>> > top of the mountain, can be found in the heart of the moment - no effort
>> > needed.  So why climb?
>>
>> Dan:
>> That I cannot answer for you. You have to answer that for yourself.
>>
>>
>
> Exactly.  I agree completely.  Which I have been, and you don't like the way
> I've been doing it.  Like I said, it seems like a double-bind you've got
> going here.

Dan:
No I don't like the way you've been doing it. You care intellectually,
I am sure of that. But John, there are other methods of climbing that
do not involve intellect and reason. And that doesn't mean being
unreasonable either.

>
>
>
> Dan:
>
>> Life is a holy journey. That is what the pilgrimages are all about. No
>> one has to write about it or think about it or be told about it. And
>> of course no one knows what is going to happen in advance. That is our
>> Western way. The sun rises every day.
>>
>>
>
> It rises in the Eastern way.  It sets in the west.

Dan:
Exactly. And we in the West expect that. Our whole lives revolve
around expectations. We rarely experience a moment of true and utter
awe at the mystery that is life. That is what was missing when
Phaedrus failed to complete the pilgrimage. He expected to climb a
mountain. But that wasn't what it was all about.

>
>
>>
>> Dan:
>> No. Ego-climbing is personal gain. It is me, me, me.
>>
>>
>
> Which is also putting me in a double-bind.  For to accuse me requires one of
> two responses : defending myself - which proves you are right.  Or admitting
> you are right, which also proves you are right.  I guess I got no choice but
> to admit you are right.

Dan:
There is no right or wrong. Not when it comes to spiritual climbing.
Right and wrong is the ego talking.

>
>
>
>
>> Dan:
>> Exactly. But one doesn't have to tell anyone anything when it comes to
>> reverence. That is beyond social and intellectual values into Dynamic
>> realms.
>>
>>
>
> Here's where we just come from too different backgrounds, I guess. I've got
> lots of experience being told to be more reverent - to revere that which is
> presented for my adulation and worship, and I don't much care for it and I
> don't imagine anyone does, not even the recipients of said reverence.

Dan:
I suspect that I am not talking about worship or God or anything
you've been told before about being reverent. It is something else
that only you can feel.

>
>
>> Dan:
>> I would have to read more than just a few quotes, of course, and that
>> type of reading doesn't interest me at all. I'd never get through it
>> though. I am not a philosopher nor do I read it... unless I have
>> trouble sleeping, then it helps lull me.
>>
>>
> Now who's clowning?  I pretty much go along with the idea that on a forum
> called "metaphysics" that philosophy is a good thing dan.  If you aren't
> going to follow any philosophical discussions, then I can see we are going
> to have a hard time conversing.  I mean, I'm not hard core or anything, but
> I am extremely interested and if you're gonna get all reverential about
> Phaedrus's pursuit, I think you oughta drink more coffee and try and get
> through that stuff because that's what he was pursuing, after all.  It's a
> philosophical ghost, not a spiritual one.

Dan:
You may enjoy reading Royce and James and all the rest but I don't. I
am not a philosopher. Philosophy puts me to sleep. And I can drink
coffee all day long and still sleep like a baby. I have been pounding
on the spiritual aspect of the MOQ but I see you are not interested in
going there. That's okay. But I am not going to get involved in what
is to me dull and meaningless discussions about philosophy. As I said
before, there are others here who are interested.

I don't clown, John. I may poke humor at people from time to time but
for the most part I am a pretty serious guy.

>
>
>
>> Dan:
>>
>> Well, sure. In a certain context, I agree. But the story has to have
>> some value, some meaning. Otherwise it is just so much clowning around
>> and the joke is on you... in my opinion, of course,
>>
>>
>
> I don't care if the joke is on me.  As long as the audience is entertained,
> my work here is done.
>
> I have no ego.  It's why I'm better than everyone else.
>
> And yes, that was a joke, dan.
>
> Take care,
>

You too,

Dan




> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> >
>> > John
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