[MD] Step One

Tue Oct 19 01:57:02 PDT 2010

Hi guys, Following in , on the totality of this interaction,have to say,this
is shifting to very good qualitystuff.
very good material, intense and honestly.
Adrie

2010/10/19 Dan Glover <daneglover at gmail.com>

> Hello everyone
>
> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 10:47 PM, John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hello Dan.
> >
> > Well.  (deep breath)  Here goes.
> >
> >> Explaining yourself poorly, is not "Quality in thought and expression"
> >> dan.
> >> > Are you admitting to some clowning of your own?
> >>
> >> Dan:
> >> Well, you are not getting what I am saying so I am being polite by
> >> pointing the fault at myself.
> >>
> >>
> > Yes!  Exactly!  That's what clowning is, dan.  And it actually can be
> very
> > helpful, at times.  The zen lunatics of Japan were famous for it, but
> that's
> > another story for another time.
>
> Dan:
> Clowning around is being polite? So please and thank you are forms of
> clowning around. I don't see it that way but if you say so...
>
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Dan:
> >> I don't know what you mean here. What story? Your life story? Your
> >> problems and tribulations? Like I said, everyone has problems. I have
> >> mine too. But I don't think it is all that wise to trot them out in
> >> front of everyone.
> >>
> >
> >
> > "airing one's dirty laundry", so to speak.  All the rage on reality tv,
> and
> > such, I hear.  I understand completely.  There has to be a point.  There
> has
> > to be some sort of meaning in it all, or it's just babble on the wind.  I
> > get that.
> >
> > Let me just say, that there seems to be to me.  The fact that I haven't
> been
> > able to fully communicate it to you, is probably my fault (see above
> remark
> > on "clowning") but I promise I will try harder.
> >
> > I think part of the problem is my idealistic reality conflicts with
> other's
> > empirical facts.  I should be more sensitive, I suppose, but part of my
> > solution to this conundrum, is simply positing the most basic and humble
> of
> > lives, mine for instance, threadbare, skinning along on the very knife
> edge
> > of existence, and yet happy, contented and continuing onward.  Getting
> > somewhere, because of the MoQ.  Because of a basic attitude about
> Quality.
> >
> > Quality is something more than mere surface appearance.
> >
> > Now, you can certainly take issue with my stance, my presentation, my
> > communication, my participation, my elucidation or my pronounciation...
> all
> > are offered up for critique and analysis.  such are the rules of this
> game.
> >
> >
> > But the issue of "reverence", bugs me for some reason.  It just doesn't
> make
> > sense to me at all, dan.  And it sorta makes me worry about you, a bit.
>
> Dan:
> Of course it doesn't make sense. That is what I have been saying all
> along. Why would you worry about me? You don't know me. Am I being
> irrational somehow? As far as I can see, what I am saying is entirely
> consistent with what many others have said, including the quotes I
> offered from The Guidebook to ZMM.
>
> >
> >
> >> Dan:
> >> How about an intelligent conversation?
> >>
> >>
> > well... you either judge me incapable of that, and walk away, or you go
> > ahead and engage me in one.  Intelligent conversation takes two people,
> you
> > know.  Two people - each listening to the other and responding to the
> points
> > that are made.
> >
> > I mean, it's seems basically to me that's what we are doing, here, now.
>  But
> > mebbe you got higher standards for "intelligent".  You want I should look
> up
> > some big words for us to ponder?
>
> Dan:
> You know.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >> Dan:
> >> Years ago there was a fellow here who went by the name of Roger
> >> Parker... a wonderful guy. We shared many discussions here and on Doug
> >> Renselle's Quantonics site. Anyway, he likened our choice set in life
> >> to a chess game. I stated that in my experience, there are many
> >> opening moves in chess that can be made, but only a select few that
> >> will allow a player a chance at winning... only  the best moves. Life
> >> is like that too. Sure, there are a vast number of thoughts involved
> >> in every decision, but there are only a select few that are good
> >> thoughts.
> >>
> >> If we are irrational beings, we won't survive long. How could we?
> >>
> >>
> > I like chess.  I get to play with my father-in-law, once a week, and he
> > loves to play as much as me, and we're evenly matched, so that's fun.
>  But
> > I'm not real good at thinking ahead in chess.  I get lost quick, in all
> the
> > potential moves and countermoves.  So instead of trying to think way
> ahead
> > of all the possible moves, I usually just focus on the move right in
> front
> > of me.  Where's the best place to go now.  What's the immediate situation
> > look like.
> >
> > There are only a select, few, that are good moves.
> >
> >
> >> > I may clown around as my style, dan, but I can be quite serious about
> >> some
> >> > things.  Loyalty is one of those things.  I respect yours.
> >>
> >> Dan:
> >> Then perhaps you understand when you insult people like Robert Pirsig
> >> that I am going to kick up a fuss about it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Now yer gonna have to back that one up, big boy.  Insult?  Where did I
> ever
> > insult Robert Pirsig?   Unless you mean insult in some weird "didn't kiss
> > the carpet enough for my satisfaction" sorta way, then I have NO idea
> what
> > you're talking about with your "insult".
> >
> > Something in your head, not mind.
>
> Dan:
> "Holy Bob" comes to mind. And many of your posts seem to denigrate
> what he has to say without understanding what it is he is saying. Now,
> you may holler that you understand and that you are not being
> insulting, but if someone were talking about me like that, I would
> consider it insulting and have nothing to do with them. Maybe you
> think it's funny and entertaining. Fine. But I am neither amused nor
> entertained by such antics.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >> > Well I'll grant you are more knowing than I on the subject, having
> spent
> >> > those years and all.  But in my opinion, all caring is the same and
> life
> >> > depends on each and every part of that caring, each and every moment
> of
> >> > every day.
> >>
> >> Dan:
> >> But it's not! Any yahoo can claim that they care and they are probably
> >> right. But there are deeper ways of caring... ways that can't be
> >> explained or written about. You have to feel it deep down. No one can
> >> tell you what to feel. No one can say the feeling is right or wrong.
> >> You just know!
> >>
> >>
> > That's true.  I do know.  No one can say I have insulted Robert Pirsig in
> my
> > heart, because only I know my heart and I know it is not there.
> >
> > And any yahoo can claim that "i care more than you" and it seems like
> that
> > because they make such a big noisy fuss.  but one has to ask, is their
> big
> > noisy fuss along the lines of the fuss the catholics made in the
> > reformation.  Nobody makes a fuss that the sun is going to rise tomorrow.
> >  People make a fuss over things that are in doubt.   Who's actually being
> > insulting then?
>
> Dan:
> Again, there are different ways of caring that have nothing to do with
> caring more. That isn't in question. Re-read the quote from ZMM about
> climbing the mountain. Nowhere does he say that the pilgrims who
> climbed the mountain cared more than Phaedrus. You are missing
> something, John, and perhaps that is what's bothering you.
>
> >
> >
> >> Dan:
> >> No I don't like the way you've been doing it. You care intellectually,
> >> I am sure of that. But John, there are other methods of climbing that
> >> do not involve intellect and reason. And that doesn't mean being
> >> unreasonable either.
> >>
> >>
> >  I don't think it's possible to "care intellectually", dan.  We care,
> then
> > intellectualize.  So I can't see how you can be so sure of anything in
> me,
> > that i don't even think is possible.
>
> Dan:
> So you never think about caring? Is that what you're saying? If not,
> then what exactly are you saying? How do you care about anything if
> you don't think about it? And I am not sure about you... I can only go
> by the words you share.
>
> >
> > And you may be right, about the other ways of climbing.  I was raised in
> a
> > belief system that said reason was what leads us astray.  They promoted
> the
> > idea of faith, but I think I'd rather go with reason.  For if faith is
> faith
> > in anything real, it should first be certainly reasonable, don't you
> think?
>
> Dan:
> Faith is the belief in that which isn't real. There is no reason to
> have faith in something that is real, is there?
>
> >
> >
> >  The sun rises every day.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > It rises in the Eastern way.  It sets in the west.
> >>
> >> Dan:
> >> Exactly. And we in the West expect that. Our whole lives revolve
> >> around expectations. We rarely experience a moment of true and utter
> >> awe at the mystery that is life. That is what was missing when
> >> Phaedrus failed to complete the pilgrimage. He expected to climb a
> >> mountain. But that wasn't what it was all about.
> >>
> >>
> > Well I hate to be so disagreeable, but I guess I gotta.    I don't see
> how
> > anybody who is a parent can help but be struck constantly with awe at the
> > mystery of life.  Happens to me about three times a week, actually.
>
> Dan:
> Sure. But again, that isn't what I am saying.
>
> >
> > Phaedrus succeeded in the true pilgrimage, which isn't about finding the
> top
> > of a mountain, it's about finding yourself.
> >
> > That's what its all about.
>
> Dan:
> It is the analogy I am pointing to, not the actual climbing. But
> perhaps we will get there.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Dan
>
> >
> > Hokey pokey John
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