[MD] Step One

[Dan Glover]

Hello everyone

On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 10:47 PM, John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Dan.
>
> Well.  (deep breath)  Here goes.
>
>> Explaining yourself poorly, is not "Quality in thought and expression"
>> dan.
>> > Are you admitting to some clowning of your own?
>>
>> Dan:
>> Well, you are not getting what I am saying so I am being polite by
>> pointing the fault at myself.
>>
>>
> Yes!  Exactly!  That's what clowning is, dan.  And it actually can be very
> helpful, at times.  The zen lunatics of Japan were famous for it, but that's
> another story for another time.

Dan:
Clowning around is being polite? So please and thank you are forms of
clowning around. I don't see it that way but if you say so...

>
>
>>
>> Dan:
>> I don't know what you mean here. What story? Your life story? Your
>> problems and tribulations? Like I said, everyone has problems. I have
>> mine too. But I don't think it is all that wise to trot them out in
>> front of everyone.
>>
>
>
> "airing one's dirty laundry", so to speak.  All the rage on reality tv, and
> such, I hear.  I understand completely.  There has to be a point.  There has
> to be some sort of meaning in it all, or it's just babble on the wind.  I
> get that.
>
> Let me just say, that there seems to be to me.  The fact that I haven't been
> able to fully communicate it to you, is probably my fault (see above remark
> on "clowning") but I promise I will try harder.
>
> I think part of the problem is my idealistic reality conflicts with other's
> empirical facts.  I should be more sensitive, I suppose, but part of my
> solution to this conundrum, is simply positing the most basic and humble of
> lives, mine for instance, threadbare, skinning along on the very knife edge
> of existence, and yet happy, contented and continuing onward.  Getting
> somewhere, because of the MoQ.  Because of a basic attitude about Quality.
>
> Quality is something more than mere surface appearance.
>
> Now, you can certainly take issue with my stance, my presentation, my
> communication, my participation, my elucidation or my pronounciation... all
> are offered up for critique and analysis.  such are the rules of this game.
>
>
> But the issue of "reverence", bugs me for some reason.  It just doesn't make
> sense to me at all, dan.  And it sorta makes me worry about you, a bit.

Dan:
Of course it doesn't make sense. That is what I have been saying all
along. Why would you worry about me? You don't know me. Am I being
irrational somehow? As far as I can see, what I am saying is entirely
consistent with what many others have said, including the quotes I
offered from The Guidebook to ZMM.

>
>
>> Dan:
>> How about an intelligent conversation?
>>
>>
> well... you either judge me incapable of that, and walk away, or you go
> ahead and engage me in one.  Intelligent conversation takes two people, you
> know.  Two people - each listening to the other and responding to the points
> that are made.
>
> I mean, it's seems basically to me that's what we are doing, here, now.  But
> mebbe you got higher standards for "intelligent".  You want I should look up
> some big words for us to ponder?

Dan:
You know.

>
>
>
>> Dan:
>> Years ago there was a fellow here who went by the name of Roger
>> Parker... a wonderful guy. We shared many discussions here and on Doug
>> Renselle's Quantonics site. Anyway, he likened our choice set in life
>> to a chess game. I stated that in my experience, there are many
>> opening moves in chess that can be made, but only a select few that
>> will allow a player a chance at winning... only  the best moves. Life
>> is like that too. Sure, there are a vast number of thoughts involved
>> in every decision, but there are only a select few that are good
>> thoughts.
>>
>> If we are irrational beings, we won't survive long. How could we?
>>
>>
> I like chess.  I get to play with my father-in-law, once a week, and he
> loves to play as much as me, and we're evenly matched, so that's fun.  But
> I'm not real good at thinking ahead in chess.  I get lost quick, in all the
> potential moves and countermoves.  So instead of trying to think way ahead
> of all the possible moves, I usually just focus on the move right in front
> of me.  Where's the best place to go now.  What's the immediate situation
> look like.
>
> There are only a select, few, that are good moves.
>
>
>> > I may clown around as my style, dan, but I can be quite serious about
>> some
>> > things.  Loyalty is one of those things.  I respect yours.
>>
>> Dan:
>> Then perhaps you understand when you insult people like Robert Pirsig
>> that I am going to kick up a fuss about it.
>
>
>
> Now yer gonna have to back that one up, big boy.  Insult?  Where did I ever
> insult Robert Pirsig?   Unless you mean insult in some weird "didn't kiss
> the carpet enough for my satisfaction" sorta way, then I have NO idea what
> you're talking about with your "insult".
>
> Something in your head, not mind.

Dan:
"Holy Bob" comes to mind. And many of your posts seem to denigrate
what he has to say without understanding what it is he is saying. Now,
you may holler that you understand and that you are not being
insulting, but if someone were talking about me like that, I would
consider it insulting and have nothing to do with them. Maybe you
think it's funny and entertaining. Fine. But I am neither amused nor
entertained by such antics.

>
>
>
>> > Well I'll grant you are more knowing than I on the subject, having spent
>> > those years and all.  But in my opinion, all caring is the same and life
>> > depends on each and every part of that caring, each and every moment of
>> > every day.
>>
>> Dan:
>> But it's not! Any yahoo can claim that they care and they are probably
>> right. But there are deeper ways of caring... ways that can't be
>> explained or written about. You have to feel it deep down. No one can
>> tell you what to feel. No one can say the feeling is right or wrong.
>> You just know!
>>
>>
> That's true.  I do know.  No one can say I have insulted Robert Pirsig in my
> heart, because only I know my heart and I know it is not there.
>
> And any yahoo can claim that "i care more than you" and it seems like that
> because they make such a big noisy fuss.  but one has to ask, is their big
> noisy fuss along the lines of the fuss the catholics made in the
> reformation.  Nobody makes a fuss that the sun is going to rise tomorrow.
>  People make a fuss over things that are in doubt.   Who's actually being
> insulting then?

Dan:
Again, there are different ways of caring that have nothing to do with
caring more. That isn't in question. Re-read the quote from ZMM about
climbing the mountain. Nowhere does he say that the pilgrims who
climbed the mountain cared more than Phaedrus. You are missing
something, John, and perhaps that is what's bothering you.

>
>
>> Dan:
>> No I don't like the way you've been doing it. You care intellectually,
>> I am sure of that. But John, there are other methods of climbing that
>> do not involve intellect and reason. And that doesn't mean being
>> unreasonable either.
>>
>>
>  I don't think it's possible to "care intellectually", dan.  We care, then
> intellectualize.  So I can't see how you can be so sure of anything in me,
> that i don't even think is possible.

Dan:
So you never think about caring? Is that what you're saying? If not,
then what exactly are you saying? How do you care about anything if
you don't think about it? And I am not sure about you... I can only go
by the words you share.

>
> And you may be right, about the other ways of climbing.  I was raised in a
> belief system that said reason was what leads us astray.  They promoted the
> idea of faith, but I think I'd rather go with reason.  For if faith is faith
> in anything real, it should first be certainly reasonable, don't you think?

Dan:
Faith is the belief in that which isn't real. There is no reason to
have faith in something that is real, is there?

>
>
>  The sun rises every day.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > It rises in the Eastern way.  It sets in the west.
>>
>> Dan:
>> Exactly. And we in the West expect that. Our whole lives revolve
>> around expectations. We rarely experience a moment of true and utter
>> awe at the mystery that is life. That is what was missing when
>> Phaedrus failed to complete the pilgrimage. He expected to climb a
>> mountain. But that wasn't what it was all about.
>>
>>
> Well I hate to be so disagreeable, but I guess I gotta.    I don't see how
> anybody who is a parent can help but be struck constantly with awe at the
> mystery of life.  Happens to me about three times a week, actually.

Dan:
Sure. But again, that isn't what I am saying.

>
> Phaedrus succeeded in the true pilgrimage, which isn't about finding the top
> of a mountain, it's about finding yourself.
>
> That's what its all about.

Dan:
It is the analogy I am pointing to, not the actual climbing. But
perhaps we will get there.

Thank you,

Dan

>
> Hokey pokey John
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