[MD] Earth the Centre of the Universe

Ian Glendinning ian.glendinning at gmail.com
Wed Oct 20 06:07:01 PDT 2010 

And even Baroness Warnock, devout Christian theist and erstwhile
critic of Pirsig - her new book / agenda is precisely about keep
religion out of politics.

Uncomfortable though it is, it is worth atheists / non-theists
listening carefully to more sophisticated theologians - rather than
talk-radio pundits - in order to progress the debate.

Currently reading Karen Armstrong.
http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3567
http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3329

Ian

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Ian Glendinning
<ian.glendinning at gmail.com> wrote:
> Exactly Marsha, me too,
>
> Which is why I noted it as highly significant, that they
> (humanists/atheists and christians/theologians ... even the catholic
> convert) managed to agree that "none of us is right", the most we can
> agree on is some golden rule about our stewardship of the cosmos, or
> some such.
>
> Reality is indeed some middle position. Our stories are all part of
> some larger whole.
>
> Ian
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:30 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>
>> Ian,
>>
>> I listened to the BBC discussion.  The whole thing made me
>> uncomfortable.  Save me from God, religion and Humanism,
>> but more than that save me from the SOM indoctrination.
>>
>>
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>
>>> Stanley Hauerwas .... is US top theologian .... hence the irony ?
>>> http://stanleyhauerwas.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>> Very interesting discussion with him on the BBC on Monday.
>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3582
>>>
>>> Ian
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:45 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I do not know who Stanley Hauerwas is.
>>>>
>>>> Oh I was teasing this morning.  Kind of...  I have grown to respect
>>>> your position more and more.  It is a middle way.  Maybe not what I
>>>> always appreciate in the moment; I may snarl, but it is often the best
>>>> choice.
>>>>
>>>> I don't suppose some know how very happy I am to be in this forum.
>>>> I have no where else to go to talk of these matters.  I consider myself
>>>> to be extremely fortunate.  -  Even my snarling skills have improved.
>>>>
>>>> Be well Ian.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marsha
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That Marsha, is why I often say (sincerely) that I think you do really get it.
>>>>>
>>>>> You (like all of us) often bring an "attitude" to the particular
>>>>> arguments with particular individuals on MD .... which gets you lashed
>>>>> and ridiculed too.
>>>>>
>>>>> I my case the "attitude" would appear to be "cute" or "smart-ass" or
>>>>> "superior & knowing" ;-) We all have our cross to bear, but in general
>>>>> (with one lone exception) I believe (trust) we are all sincere.
>>>>>
>>>>> But that's only my opinion. BTW did you see the Stanley Hauerwas joke ?
>>>>> "When Bush came to power I concluded he was sincere about his
>>>>> Christian faith. I also concluded it showed how little sincerity had
>>>>> to do with Christianity."
>>>>>
>>>>> Ian
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:11 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see the hope in the enigma, that science is beyond "making sense."
>>>>>> It might be a time for a paradigm shift in thinking.  There's hints and hope.
>>>>>> I love the quantum micro and macro, though.  It's all very exciting as scientists
>>>>>> become entangled in their own beliefs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There does seem to be a false dichotomy in the air:  objective science OR
>>>>>> subjective god.  That's why I love and respect the MoQ and Buddhism..
>>>>>> There's a better/middle way.  And why I go on about reification/som.  Break
>>>>>> that habit and you have a whole new and improved game to play.  But, as
>>>>>> I've read and know first-hand, it is a hard habit to break.  imho.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marsha,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DMB has his own agenda (and style of ridicule), in particular in this
>>>>>>> context defending scientific rationality against anti-intellectual attacks
>>>>>>> from the right, and spurious god / religion / theology arguments. There are
>>>>>>> millions of people in that debate right now - my lone voice in support of
>>>>>>> enlightened rationality will not be missed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm focussed on making science better (in whatever small ways I can) ...
>>>>>>> better understand itself and its relation to the mythos ... so that it
>>>>>>> doesn't fall into the idolatrous trap of absolute intellectual superiority
>>>>>>> like any two-bit religion. (In doing so, I do risk appearing not to support
>>>>>>> the first argument .... but nothing could be further from the truth.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I wrote so dmb could understand me, I think our differences would be
>>>>>>> purely tactical - choosing our battlegrounds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Standing by for DMB's ridicule.
>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:35 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Geez, someone criticized Hawking in this forum and was soundly ridiculed
>>>>>>>> by dmb?  I have watched all the Hawking dvd programs available; one more
>>>>>>>> to go.  Find it important to know where I am pointing my skepticism.  -
>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>> interesting story-telling.  Once upon a time there was singularity...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wallace's book was great!   -   I can only change myself, which may be the
>>>>>>>> best way to assist social change.  When in public I _try_ to spread good
>>>>>>>> cheer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:21 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Hawking (media superstar) is part of the problem of current day
>>>>>>>>> science, all he can do is deepen the hole it's in.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Science will rise to its true position if it winds back 80 years or so.
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> problem with science now is that it is (in its own mind and in public
>>>>>>>>> consciousness and media generally) too exalted. Unfortunately, to be
>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>>> scientific is to be praised - hallelujah. Idolatry in action.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But - let's try and do something about it - do as we would be done by.
>>>>>>>>> Look at the specific scientific error in the big bang stuff (I provided
>>>>>>>> 10
>>>>>>>>> or more links) ... and use it as an example to spread awareness of the
>>>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:05 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry.  I meant science.  It will take much more than
>>>>>>>>>> Hawking hawking its theories to resurrect science to
>>>>>>>>>> an exalted position.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:55 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Marsha,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book, I've heard of, but ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Resurrect "it" - what's "it" ?
>>>>>>>>>>> Whose comments on what programme ?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 10:37 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book 'Choosing Reality' was enlightening.  It will take
>>>>>>>>>>>> much more than a Hawking to resurrect it.  It's hard to keep from
>>>>>>>>>>>> laughing at his program comments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:33 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If science is right it appears Copernicus was right all along, and
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Earth
>>>>>>>>>>>>> really is the centre of the universe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3589
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Clue - science is wrong - shock, horror ;-o )
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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