[MD] Earth the Centre of the Universe

MarshaV valkyr at att.net
Wed Oct 20 06:39:40 PDT 2010 

On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:

> And even Baroness Warnock, devout Christian theist and erstwhile
> critic of Pirsig - her new book / agenda is precisely about keep
> religion out of politics.
> 
> Uncomfortable though it is, it is worth atheists / non-theists
> listening carefully to more sophisticated theologians - rather than
> talk-radio pundits - in order to progress the debate.
> 
> Currently reading Karen Armstrong.
> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3567
> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3329
> 
> Ian


I read a bunch of books by Karen Armstong, even her book on 
Buddhism.  I was not impressed, but then I was looking for 
?something? that I did not find.  I watched her on TED and thought 
she was too preachy.  -  The for and against arguments about God 
just leaves me cold.  I just don't get it.   Even the concept of 'religion' 
seems to be entangled in definition that I don't like, and don't think
necessary.  I listen to John and try to get what he's  saying about a 
shared something-or-other.  But what?  Decided by whom?  Enforced 
how?  Listening to the academics rather then talk-radio pundits 
seems like slightly better smelling gobbledygook.  Very slightly!   

Marsha  






> 
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Ian Glendinning
> <ian.glendinning at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Exactly Marsha, me too,
>> 
>> Which is why I noted it as highly significant, that they
>> (humanists/atheists and christians/theologians ... even the catholic
>> convert) managed to agree that "none of us is right", the most we can
>> agree on is some golden rule about our stewardship of the cosmos, or
>> some such.
>> 
>> Reality is indeed some middle position. Our stories are all part of
>> some larger whole.
>> 
>> Ian
>> 
>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:30 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Ian,
>>> 
>>> I listened to the BBC discussion.  The whole thing made me
>>> uncomfortable.  Save me from God, religion and Humanism,
>>> but more than that save me from the SOM indoctrination.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Marsha
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Stanley Hauerwas .... is US top theologian .... hence the irony ?
>>>> http://stanleyhauerwas.blogspot.com/
>>>> 
>>>> Very interesting discussion with him on the BBC on Monday.
>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3582
>>>> 
>>>> Ian
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:45 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I do not know who Stanley Hauerwas is.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Oh I was teasing this morning.  Kind of...  I have grown to respect
>>>>> your position more and more.  It is a middle way.  Maybe not what I
>>>>> always appreciate in the moment; I may snarl, but it is often the best
>>>>> choice.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't suppose some know how very happy I am to be in this forum.
>>>>> I have no where else to go to talk of these matters.  I consider myself
>>>>> to be extremely fortunate.  -  Even my snarling skills have improved.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Be well Ian.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Marsha
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> That Marsha, is why I often say (sincerely) that I think you do really get it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You (like all of us) often bring an "attitude" to the particular
>>>>>> arguments with particular individuals on MD .... which gets you lashed
>>>>>> and ridiculed too.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I my case the "attitude" would appear to be "cute" or "smart-ass" or
>>>>>> "superior & knowing" ;-) We all have our cross to bear, but in general
>>>>>> (with one lone exception) I believe (trust) we are all sincere.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But that's only my opinion. BTW did you see the Stanley Hauerwas joke ?
>>>>>> "When Bush came to power I concluded he was sincere about his
>>>>>> Christian faith. I also concluded it showed how little sincerity had
>>>>>> to do with Christianity."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:11 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I see the hope in the enigma, that science is beyond "making sense."
>>>>>>> It might be a time for a paradigm shift in thinking.  There's hints and hope.
>>>>>>> I love the quantum micro and macro, though.  It's all very exciting as scientists
>>>>>>> become entangled in their own beliefs.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There does seem to be a false dichotomy in the air:  objective science OR
>>>>>>> subjective god.  That's why I love and respect the MoQ and Buddhism..
>>>>>>> There's a better/middle way.  And why I go on about reification/som.  Break
>>>>>>> that habit and you have a whole new and improved game to play.  But, as
>>>>>>> I've read and know first-hand, it is a hard habit to break.  imho.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Marsha,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> DMB has his own agenda (and style of ridicule), in particular in this
>>>>>>>> context defending scientific rationality against anti-intellectual attacks
>>>>>>>> from the right, and spurious god / religion / theology arguments. There are
>>>>>>>> millions of people in that debate right now - my lone voice in support of
>>>>>>>> enlightened rationality will not be missed.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'm focussed on making science better (in whatever small ways I can) ...
>>>>>>>> better understand itself and its relation to the mythos ... so that it
>>>>>>>> doesn't fall into the idolatrous trap of absolute intellectual superiority
>>>>>>>> like any two-bit religion. (In doing so, I do risk appearing not to support
>>>>>>>> the first argument .... but nothing could be further from the truth.)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If I wrote so dmb could understand me, I think our differences would be
>>>>>>>> purely tactical - choosing our battlegrounds.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Standing by for DMB's ridicule.
>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:35 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Geez, someone criticized Hawking in this forum and was soundly ridiculed
>>>>>>>>> by dmb?  I have watched all the Hawking dvd programs available; one more
>>>>>>>>> to go.  Find it important to know where I am pointing my skepticism.  -
>>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>> interesting story-telling.  Once upon a time there was singularity...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Wallace's book was great!   -   I can only change myself, which may be the
>>>>>>>>> best way to assist social change.  When in public I _try_ to spread good
>>>>>>>>> cheer.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:21 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Hawking (media superstar) is part of the problem of current day
>>>>>>>>>> science, all he can do is deepen the hole it's in.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Science will rise to its true position if it winds back 80 years or so.
>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>> problem with science now is that it is (in its own mind and in public
>>>>>>>>>> consciousness and media generally) too exalted. Unfortunately, to be
>>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>>>> scientific is to be praised - hallelujah. Idolatry in action.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> But - let's try and do something about it - do as we would be done by.
>>>>>>>>>> Look at the specific scientific error in the big bang stuff (I provided
>>>>>>>>> 10
>>>>>>>>>> or more links) ... and use it as an example to spread awareness of the
>>>>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:05 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry.  I meant science.  It will take much more than
>>>>>>>>>>> Hawking hawking its theories to resurrect science to
>>>>>>>>>>> an exalted position.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:55 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Marsha,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book, I've heard of, but ...
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Resurrect "it" - what's "it" ?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Whose comments on what programme ?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 10:37 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book 'Choosing Reality' was enlightening.  It will take
>>>>>>>>>>>>> much more than a Hawking to resurrect it.  It's hard to keep from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> laughing at his program comments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:33 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If science is right it appears Copernicus was right all along, and
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Earth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really is the centre of the universe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3589
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Clue - science is wrong - shock, horror ;-o )
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
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