[MD] Earth the Centre of the Universe

Ian Glendinning ian.glendinning at gmail.com
Wed Oct 20 06:53:05 PDT 2010 

She gets very preachy in the last 5 minutes if that TED talk, I'd agree.
Gobbledygook - yes loads of it, but when you strip it away and look at
what is agreed, it's very simple - the golden rule / absence of ego.
(Enforced ? Huh ? where is that come from.)

(You've made it clear your aim is not to progress any debate.)

BTW I checked out the Wallace book. I remember it now - written after
Capra's "Tao of Physics" and Talbot's "Mysticism and the New Physics".
The former is quoted by Wallace, the latter is the book that I already
recorded as having flipped me into checking out Pirsig - the start of
my journey.

Ian

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:39 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>
> On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>
>> And even Baroness Warnock, devout Christian theist and erstwhile
>> critic of Pirsig - her new book / agenda is precisely about keep
>> religion out of politics.
>>
>> Uncomfortable though it is, it is worth atheists / non-theists
>> listening carefully to more sophisticated theologians - rather than
>> talk-radio pundits - in order to progress the debate.
>>
>> Currently reading Karen Armstrong.
>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3567
>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3329
>>
>> Ian
>
>
> I read a bunch of books by Karen Armstong, even her book on
> Buddhism.  I was not impressed, but then I was looking for
> ?something? that I did not find.  I watched her on TED and thought
> she was too preachy.  -  The for and against arguments about God
> just leaves me cold.  I just don't get it.   Even the concept of 'religion'
> seems to be entangled in definition that I don't like, and don't think
> necessary.  I listen to John and try to get what he's  saying about a
> shared something-or-other.  But what?  Decided by whom?  Enforced
> how?  Listening to the academics rather then talk-radio pundits
> seems like slightly better smelling gobbledygook.  Very slightly!
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Ian Glendinning
>> <ian.glendinning at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Exactly Marsha, me too,
>>>
>>> Which is why I noted it as highly significant, that they
>>> (humanists/atheists and christians/theologians ... even the catholic
>>> convert) managed to agree that "none of us is right", the most we can
>>> agree on is some golden rule about our stewardship of the cosmos, or
>>> some such.
>>>
>>> Reality is indeed some middle position. Our stories are all part of
>>> some larger whole.
>>>
>>> Ian
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:30 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ian,
>>>>
>>>> I listened to the BBC discussion.  The whole thing made me
>>>> uncomfortable.  Save me from God, religion and Humanism,
>>>> but more than that save me from the SOM indoctrination.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marsha
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Stanley Hauerwas .... is US top theologian .... hence the irony ?
>>>>> http://stanleyhauerwas.blogspot.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> Very interesting discussion with him on the BBC on Monday.
>>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3582
>>>>>
>>>>> Ian
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:45 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do not know who Stanley Hauerwas is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh I was teasing this morning.  Kind of...  I have grown to respect
>>>>>> your position more and more.  It is a middle way.  Maybe not what I
>>>>>> always appreciate in the moment; I may snarl, but it is often the best
>>>>>> choice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't suppose some know how very happy I am to be in this forum.
>>>>>> I have no where else to go to talk of these matters.  I consider myself
>>>>>> to be extremely fortunate.  -  Even my snarling skills have improved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Be well Ian.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That Marsha, is why I often say (sincerely) that I think you do really get it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You (like all of us) often bring an "attitude" to the particular
>>>>>>> arguments with particular individuals on MD .... which gets you lashed
>>>>>>> and ridiculed too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I my case the "attitude" would appear to be "cute" or "smart-ass" or
>>>>>>> "superior & knowing" ;-) We all have our cross to bear, but in general
>>>>>>> (with one lone exception) I believe (trust) we are all sincere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that's only my opinion. BTW did you see the Stanley Hauerwas joke ?
>>>>>>> "When Bush came to power I concluded he was sincere about his
>>>>>>> Christian faith. I also concluded it showed how little sincerity had
>>>>>>> to do with Christianity."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:11 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I see the hope in the enigma, that science is beyond "making sense."
>>>>>>>> It might be a time for a paradigm shift in thinking.  There's hints and hope.
>>>>>>>> I love the quantum micro and macro, though.  It's all very exciting as scientists
>>>>>>>> become entangled in their own beliefs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There does seem to be a false dichotomy in the air:  objective science OR
>>>>>>>> subjective god.  That's why I love and respect the MoQ and Buddhism..
>>>>>>>> There's a better/middle way.  And why I go on about reification/som.  Break
>>>>>>>> that habit and you have a whole new and improved game to play.  But, as
>>>>>>>> I've read and know first-hand, it is a hard habit to break.  imho.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marsha,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> DMB has his own agenda (and style of ridicule), in particular in this
>>>>>>>>> context defending scientific rationality against anti-intellectual attacks
>>>>>>>>> from the right, and spurious god / religion / theology arguments. There are
>>>>>>>>> millions of people in that debate right now - my lone voice in support of
>>>>>>>>> enlightened rationality will not be missed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm focussed on making science better (in whatever small ways I can) ...
>>>>>>>>> better understand itself and its relation to the mythos ... so that it
>>>>>>>>> doesn't fall into the idolatrous trap of absolute intellectual superiority
>>>>>>>>> like any two-bit religion. (In doing so, I do risk appearing not to support
>>>>>>>>> the first argument .... but nothing could be further from the truth.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If I wrote so dmb could understand me, I think our differences would be
>>>>>>>>> purely tactical - choosing our battlegrounds.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Standing by for DMB's ridicule.
>>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:35 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Geez, someone criticized Hawking in this forum and was soundly ridiculed
>>>>>>>>>> by dmb?  I have watched all the Hawking dvd programs available; one more
>>>>>>>>>> to go.  Find it important to know where I am pointing my skepticism.  -
>>>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>>> interesting story-telling.  Once upon a time there was singularity...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wallace's book was great!   -   I can only change myself, which may be the
>>>>>>>>>> best way to assist social change.  When in public I _try_ to spread good
>>>>>>>>>> cheer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:21 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Hawking (media superstar) is part of the problem of current day
>>>>>>>>>>> science, all he can do is deepen the hole it's in.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Science will rise to its true position if it winds back 80 years or so.
>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>> problem with science now is that it is (in its own mind and in public
>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness and media generally) too exalted. Unfortunately, to be
>>>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>>>>> scientific is to be praised - hallelujah. Idolatry in action.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But - let's try and do something about it - do as we would be done by.
>>>>>>>>>>> Look at the specific scientific error in the big bang stuff (I provided
>>>>>>>>>> 10
>>>>>>>>>>> or more links) ... and use it as an example to spread awareness of the
>>>>>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:05 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry.  I meant science.  It will take much more than
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hawking hawking its theories to resurrect science to
>>>>>>>>>>>> an exalted position.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:55 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Marsha,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book, I've heard of, but ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Resurrect "it" - what's "it" ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whose comments on what programme ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 10:37 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book 'Choosing Reality' was enlightening.  It will take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much more than a Hawking to resurrect it.  It's hard to keep from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laughing at his program comments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:33 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If science is right it appears Copernicus was right all along, and
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Earth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really is the centre of the universe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3589
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Clue - science is wrong - shock, horror ;-o )
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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