[MD] Earth the Centre of the Universe

MarshaV valkyr at att.net
Wed Oct 20 07:11:53 PDT 2010 

Yes, I noted the mention of Capra's book which is also the 
basis for the movie MindWalk.  And it was disparaged in the book 
'Quantum Enigma' as new-agey.   

Ian, I think the way that I disposed of my bible was a ritual 
that uprooted many religious tentacles.  Not my heart, but its 
connection to religion.  

Enjoyed the discussion.  Thank you.    


Marsha 




On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:

> She gets very preachy in the last 5 minutes if that TED talk, I'd agree.
> Gobbledygook - yes loads of it, but when you strip it away and look at
> what is agreed, it's very simple - the golden rule / absence of ego.
> (Enforced ? Huh ? where is that come from.)
> 
> (You've made it clear your aim is not to progress any debate.)
> 
> BTW I checked out the Wallace book. I remember it now - written after
> Capra's "Tao of Physics" and Talbot's "Mysticism and the New Physics".
> The former is quoted by Wallace, the latter is the book that I already
> recorded as having flipped me into checking out Pirsig - the start of
> my journey.
> 
> Ian
> 
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:39 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>> 
>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>> 
>>> And even Baroness Warnock, devout Christian theist and erstwhile
>>> critic of Pirsig - her new book / agenda is precisely about keep
>>> religion out of politics.
>>> 
>>> Uncomfortable though it is, it is worth atheists / non-theists
>>> listening carefully to more sophisticated theologians - rather than
>>> talk-radio pundits - in order to progress the debate.
>>> 
>>> Currently reading Karen Armstrong.
>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3567
>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3329
>>> 
>>> Ian
>> 
>> 
>> I read a bunch of books by Karen Armstong, even her book on
>> Buddhism.  I was not impressed, but then I was looking for
>> ?something? that I did not find.  I watched her on TED and thought
>> she was too preachy.  -  The for and against arguments about God
>> just leaves me cold.  I just don't get it.   Even the concept of 'religion'
>> seems to be entangled in definition that I don't like, and don't think
>> necessary.  I listen to John and try to get what he's  saying about a
>> shared something-or-other.  But what?  Decided by whom?  Enforced
>> how?  Listening to the academics rather then talk-radio pundits
>> seems like slightly better smelling gobbledygook.  Very slightly!
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Ian Glendinning
>>> <ian.glendinning at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Exactly Marsha, me too,
>>>> 
>>>> Which is why I noted it as highly significant, that they
>>>> (humanists/atheists and christians/theologians ... even the catholic
>>>> convert) managed to agree that "none of us is right", the most we can
>>>> agree on is some golden rule about our stewardship of the cosmos, or
>>>> some such.
>>>> 
>>>> Reality is indeed some middle position. Our stories are all part of
>>>> some larger whole.
>>>> 
>>>> Ian
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:30 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ian,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I listened to the BBC discussion.  The whole thing made me
>>>>> uncomfortable.  Save me from God, religion and Humanism,
>>>>> but more than that save me from the SOM indoctrination.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Marsha
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Stanley Hauerwas .... is US top theologian .... hence the irony ?
>>>>>> http://stanleyhauerwas.blogspot.com/
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Very interesting discussion with him on the BBC on Monday.
>>>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3582
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:45 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I do not know who Stanley Hauerwas is.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Oh I was teasing this morning.  Kind of...  I have grown to respect
>>>>>>> your position more and more.  It is a middle way.  Maybe not what I
>>>>>>> always appreciate in the moment; I may snarl, but it is often the best
>>>>>>> choice.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I don't suppose some know how very happy I am to be in this forum.
>>>>>>> I have no where else to go to talk of these matters.  I consider myself
>>>>>>> to be extremely fortunate.  -  Even my snarling skills have improved.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Be well Ian.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> That Marsha, is why I often say (sincerely) that I think you do really get it.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You (like all of us) often bring an "attitude" to the particular
>>>>>>>> arguments with particular individuals on MD .... which gets you lashed
>>>>>>>> and ridiculed too.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I my case the "attitude" would appear to be "cute" or "smart-ass" or
>>>>>>>> "superior & knowing" ;-) We all have our cross to bear, but in general
>>>>>>>> (with one lone exception) I believe (trust) we are all sincere.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> But that's only my opinion. BTW did you see the Stanley Hauerwas joke ?
>>>>>>>> "When Bush came to power I concluded he was sincere about his
>>>>>>>> Christian faith. I also concluded it showed how little sincerity had
>>>>>>>> to do with Christianity."
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:11 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I see the hope in the enigma, that science is beyond "making sense."
>>>>>>>>> It might be a time for a paradigm shift in thinking.  There's hints and hope.
>>>>>>>>> I love the quantum micro and macro, though.  It's all very exciting as scientists
>>>>>>>>> become entangled in their own beliefs.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> There does seem to be a false dichotomy in the air:  objective science OR
>>>>>>>>> subjective god.  That's why I love and respect the MoQ and Buddhism..
>>>>>>>>> There's a better/middle way.  And why I go on about reification/som.  Break
>>>>>>>>> that habit and you have a whole new and improved game to play.  But, as
>>>>>>>>> I've read and know first-hand, it is a hard habit to break.  imho.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Marsha,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> DMB has his own agenda (and style of ridicule), in particular in this
>>>>>>>>>> context defending scientific rationality against anti-intellectual attacks
>>>>>>>>>> from the right, and spurious god / religion / theology arguments. There are
>>>>>>>>>> millions of people in that debate right now - my lone voice in support of
>>>>>>>>>> enlightened rationality will not be missed.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I'm focussed on making science better (in whatever small ways I can) ...
>>>>>>>>>> better understand itself and its relation to the mythos ... so that it
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't fall into the idolatrous trap of absolute intellectual superiority
>>>>>>>>>> like any two-bit religion. (In doing so, I do risk appearing not to support
>>>>>>>>>> the first argument .... but nothing could be further from the truth.)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> If I wrote so dmb could understand me, I think our differences would be
>>>>>>>>>> purely tactical - choosing our battlegrounds.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Standing by for DMB's ridicule.
>>>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:35 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Geez, someone criticized Hawking in this forum and was soundly ridiculed
>>>>>>>>>>> by dmb?  I have watched all the Hawking dvd programs available; one more
>>>>>>>>>>> to go.  Find it important to know where I am pointing my skepticism.  -
>>>>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>>>> interesting story-telling.  Once upon a time there was singularity...
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Wallace's book was great!   -   I can only change myself, which may be the
>>>>>>>>>>> best way to assist social change.  When in public I _try_ to spread good
>>>>>>>>>>> cheer.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:21 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Hawking (media superstar) is part of the problem of current day
>>>>>>>>>>>> science, all he can do is deepen the hole it's in.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Science will rise to its true position if it winds back 80 years or so.
>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with science now is that it is (in its own mind and in public
>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness and media generally) too exalted. Unfortunately, to be
>>>>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>>>>>> scientific is to be praised - hallelujah. Idolatry in action.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> But - let's try and do something about it - do as we would be done by.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Look at the specific scientific error in the big bang stuff (I provided
>>>>>>>>>>> 10
>>>>>>>>>>>> or more links) ... and use it as an example to spread awareness of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:05 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry.  I meant science.  It will take much more than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hawking hawking its theories to resurrect science to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an exalted position.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:55 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Marsha,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book, I've heard of, but ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Resurrect "it" - what's "it" ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whose comments on what programme ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 10:37 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book 'Choosing Reality' was enlightening.  It will take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much more than a Hawking to resurrect it.  It's hard to keep from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laughing at his program comments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:33 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If science is right it appears Copernicus was right all along, and
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Earth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really is the centre of the universe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3589
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Clue - science is wrong - shock, horror ;-o )
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
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