[MD] Earth the Centre of the Universe

Ian Glendinning ian.glendinning at gmail.com
Wed Oct 20 07:28:42 PDT 2010 

Mindwalk was actually based on Turning Point not Tao of Physics as I
understand it.

Clearly mainstream science is going to brand Capra new-agey, like
Pirsig in fact. That's the problem we're talking about, mainstream
physics believing anything that doesn't fit their SOMist mould is to
be disparaged.

It's why I cited Talbot (not Capra) incidentally - Capra does push the
boundaries a bit far (even for a MoQist) in his Holographic Universe.
Unfortunately Talbot doesn't seem to have the PR agent that Capra has,
but his writing is better ... and he's a Brit ;-)

Ian

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:11 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>
> Yes, I noted the mention of Capra's book which is also the
> basis for the movie MindWalk.  And it was disparaged in the book
> 'Quantum Enigma' as new-agey.
>
> Ian, I think the way that I disposed of my bible was a ritual
> that uprooted many religious tentacles.  Not my heart, but its
> connection to religion.
>
> Enjoyed the discussion.  Thank you.
>
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:53 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>
>> She gets very preachy in the last 5 minutes if that TED talk, I'd agree.
>> Gobbledygook - yes loads of it, but when you strip it away and look at
>> what is agreed, it's very simple - the golden rule / absence of ego.
>> (Enforced ? Huh ? where is that come from.)
>>
>> (You've made it clear your aim is not to progress any debate.)
>>
>> BTW I checked out the Wallace book. I remember it now - written after
>> Capra's "Tao of Physics" and Talbot's "Mysticism and the New Physics".
>> The former is quoted by Wallace, the latter is the book that I already
>> recorded as having flipped me into checking out Pirsig - the start of
>> my journey.
>>
>> Ian
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:39 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:07 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>
>>>> And even Baroness Warnock, devout Christian theist and erstwhile
>>>> critic of Pirsig - her new book / agenda is precisely about keep
>>>> religion out of politics.
>>>>
>>>> Uncomfortable though it is, it is worth atheists / non-theists
>>>> listening carefully to more sophisticated theologians - rather than
>>>> talk-radio pundits - in order to progress the debate.
>>>>
>>>> Currently reading Karen Armstrong.
>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3567
>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3329
>>>>
>>>> Ian
>>>
>>>
>>> I read a bunch of books by Karen Armstong, even her book on
>>> Buddhism.  I was not impressed, but then I was looking for
>>> ?something? that I did not find.  I watched her on TED and thought
>>> she was too preachy.  -  The for and against arguments about God
>>> just leaves me cold.  I just don't get it.   Even the concept of 'religion'
>>> seems to be entangled in definition that I don't like, and don't think
>>> necessary.  I listen to John and try to get what he's  saying about a
>>> shared something-or-other.  But what?  Decided by whom?  Enforced
>>> how?  Listening to the academics rather then talk-radio pundits
>>> seems like slightly better smelling gobbledygook.  Very slightly!
>>>
>>> Marsha
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Ian Glendinning
>>>> <ian.glendinning at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Exactly Marsha, me too,
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is why I noted it as highly significant, that they
>>>>> (humanists/atheists and christians/theologians ... even the catholic
>>>>> convert) managed to agree that "none of us is right", the most we can
>>>>> agree on is some golden rule about our stewardship of the cosmos, or
>>>>> some such.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reality is indeed some middle position. Our stories are all part of
>>>>> some larger whole.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ian
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:30 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I listened to the BBC discussion.  The whole thing made me
>>>>>> uncomfortable.  Save me from God, religion and Humanism,
>>>>>> but more than that save me from the SOM indoctrination.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stanley Hauerwas .... is US top theologian .... hence the irony ?
>>>>>>> http://stanleyhauerwas.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Very interesting discussion with him on the BBC on Monday.
>>>>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3582
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:45 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do not know who Stanley Hauerwas is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh I was teasing this morning.  Kind of...  I have grown to respect
>>>>>>>> your position more and more.  It is a middle way.  Maybe not what I
>>>>>>>> always appreciate in the moment; I may snarl, but it is often the best
>>>>>>>> choice.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't suppose some know how very happy I am to be in this forum.
>>>>>>>> I have no where else to go to talk of these matters.  I consider myself
>>>>>>>> to be extremely fortunate.  -  Even my snarling skills have improved.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Be well Ian.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 7:28 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That Marsha, is why I often say (sincerely) that I think you do really get it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You (like all of us) often bring an "attitude" to the particular
>>>>>>>>> arguments with particular individuals on MD .... which gets you lashed
>>>>>>>>> and ridiculed too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I my case the "attitude" would appear to be "cute" or "smart-ass" or
>>>>>>>>> "superior & knowing" ;-) We all have our cross to bear, but in general
>>>>>>>>> (with one lone exception) I believe (trust) we are all sincere.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But that's only my opinion. BTW did you see the Stanley Hauerwas joke ?
>>>>>>>>> "When Bush came to power I concluded he was sincere about his
>>>>>>>>> Christian faith. I also concluded it showed how little sincerity had
>>>>>>>>> to do with Christianity."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 12:11 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I see the hope in the enigma, that science is beyond "making sense."
>>>>>>>>>> It might be a time for a paradigm shift in thinking.  There's hints and hope.
>>>>>>>>>> I love the quantum micro and macro, though.  It's all very exciting as scientists
>>>>>>>>>> become entangled in their own beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There does seem to be a false dichotomy in the air:  objective science OR
>>>>>>>>>> subjective god.  That's why I love and respect the MoQ and Buddhism..
>>>>>>>>>> There's a better/middle way.  And why I go on about reification/som.  Break
>>>>>>>>>> that habit and you have a whole new and improved game to play.  But, as
>>>>>>>>>> I've read and know first-hand, it is a hard habit to break.  imho.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:48 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> DMB has his own agenda (and style of ridicule), in particular in this
>>>>>>>>>>> context defending scientific rationality against anti-intellectual attacks
>>>>>>>>>>> from the right, and spurious god / religion / theology arguments. There are
>>>>>>>>>>> millions of people in that debate right now - my lone voice in support of
>>>>>>>>>>> enlightened rationality will not be missed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm focussed on making science better (in whatever small ways I can) ...
>>>>>>>>>>> better understand itself and its relation to the mythos ... so that it
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't fall into the idolatrous trap of absolute intellectual superiority
>>>>>>>>>>> like any two-bit religion. (In doing so, I do risk appearing not to support
>>>>>>>>>>> the first argument .... but nothing could be further from the truth.)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If I wrote so dmb could understand me, I think our differences would be
>>>>>>>>>>> purely tactical - choosing our battlegrounds.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Standing by for DMB's ridicule.
>>>>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:35 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Geez, someone criticized Hawking in this forum and was soundly ridiculed
>>>>>>>>>>>> by dmb?  I have watched all the Hawking dvd programs available; one more
>>>>>>>>>>>> to go.  Find it important to know where I am pointing my skepticism.  -
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting story-telling.  Once upon a time there was singularity...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wallace's book was great!   -   I can only change myself, which may be the
>>>>>>>>>>>> best way to assist social change.  When in public I _try_ to spread good
>>>>>>>>>>>> cheer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 6:21 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. Hawking (media superstar) is part of the problem of current day
>>>>>>>>>>>>> science, all he can do is deepen the hole it's in.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Science will rise to its true position if it winds back 80 years or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with science now is that it is (in its own mind and in public
>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness and media generally) too exalted. Unfortunately, to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> called
>>>>>>>>>>>>> scientific is to be praised - hallelujah. Idolatry in action.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But - let's try and do something about it - do as we would be done by.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look at the specific scientific error in the big bang stuff (I provided
>>>>>>>>>>>> 10
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or more links) ... and use it as an example to spread awareness of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:05 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry.  I meant science.  It will take much more than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hawking hawking its theories to resurrect science to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an exalted position.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:55 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Marsha,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book, I've heard of, but ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Resurrect "it" - what's "it" ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whose comments on what programme ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 10:37 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Wallace book 'Choosing Reality' was enlightening.  It will take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much more than a Hawking to resurrect it.  It's hard to keep from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laughing at his program comments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 20, 2010, at 5:33 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If science is right it appears Copernicus was right all along, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Earth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really is the centre of the universe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.psybertron.org/?p=3589
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Clue - science is wrong - shock, horror ;-o )
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ian
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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