[MD] The Dynamics of Value

[118]

Hi A,

Thanks for the response and wonderful ideas.

Yes, I do not want to get into how logic can be defined, so I use it only in
terms of its cause and effect, or if/then, as directed by words based on
assumptions.  I suppose one could describe a type of logic coming from
poetry, but I prefer just to use such a term in its quasi-scientific sense.
 Ritual could be interpreted as logical but, this just confuses things for
me.  Of course, that is limiting the definition, but just makes it simpler.
 Other kinds of logic can certainly contain a modifier such as you present
with the term poetic logic.

We have discussed memes in this forum, but I don't think anyone has brought
up Falon Gong, but I have to say, I have not read the complete history of
MOQ.  For me labeling can be seen as posts in the ground which are then
interconnected with strings to form a web.  And what a beautiful web it is!
 The important thing for me to keep in mind, is that in the end, this web is
not connected to anything, but floating and growing on its own.  And, of
course, what is the spider?

The web itself is based on so called intuition.  The view I take is that all
subject object metaphysics is indeed fruitful in terms of creating meaning
and thus imparting reconciliation with what we are presented with.  However,
it should be viewed in that context and not pretend to be something more.
 We are dealing with analogies and analogies of analogies.  Yes, technology
should not be abandoned, we are still in primitive times and have only just
begun.  We do, however, need to take a break now and again, and let wisdom
catch up.

You will also notice that sometimes Quality is brought in to justify certain
views or systems rather than to describe them.  I believe this should also
be viewed with skepticism.

Cheers,
Mark

On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 3:00 AM, Alexander Jarnroth <
alexander.jarnroth at comhem.se> wrote:

> There are other things to language as well, that is a kind of "logic of
> practice" as i Bourdieu. I came to a similar conclusion myself after
> reading
> such tests as the Nag Hammadi-library, The Upanishads, Sepher Yetzira et
> cetera. As an example: the Lord of Bonds, is the god of dawn and dusk,
> binding day and night. His symbol is a ring, which is a kind of bond. When
> marrying, to people are bound together, and thus they put rings on their
> fingers.
> I've invented such a ritual of my own. I only cut my hair once a year,
> during the last week of February. Where I live, that's when the rays of the
> sun starts warming again and nature slowly begins to grow again. That's my
> personal "new year" and by cutting my hair, letting it grow again, I reform
> myself just as nature does.
> There is also the logic of poetics, which some semiotic texts consider. In
> poetics you associate words by similar pronunciation or spelling, sometimes
> by alliteration, sometimes by rhyme, sometimes just by stress and so on. In
> that sense the Greek god Chronos/Chronus (time) became Kronos/Cronus (the
> son of Ouranos/Uranus), even though the name Kronos originally had no
> etymological relationship to Chronos (time). Once the connecting is
> established, however, you can't really dissociate them.
>
> Labeling things could be useful, as long are you're conscious of the fact
> that the labels are superimposed and mostly arbitrarily chosen, or chosen
> for a specific purpose. That's why I prefer looking at such labeling or
> categorizations as sets in a set theoretic sense. And then, of course, it
> becomes the same as the referents in classic semantics.
>
> I don't know if you've heard about the concept of "memes" being
> "intellectual genes" of a culture? Perhaps most of them are, just as much
> of
> the genome, superfluous, but you can't really abandon it. I guess it would
> be the same as Pirsig's "mythos".
> I know that leaders of Falun Gong have said that the voice of the
> intellect,
> the Freudian superego, is really alien spirits, trying to capture the mind
> of human beings to make them produce and serve machines. I wouldn't really
> like to take such an anti-intellectual stance. One thing which I liked with
> Zen or the art of motorcycle maintenance, was that Pirsig, even when
> criticizing modern society, didn't propose the abandonment of intellect or
> technology. Rather, we said, we should just try to take conscious
> intellectual control and direct it towards dynamical progress (which we by
> definition can't know what it is), rather than some laissez fair or Marxist
> attitude (which would be each other's opposites).
> I agree with that.
>
> /A
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of 118
> Sent: den 25 oktober 2010 00:06
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The Dynamics of Value
>
> Hi A,
>
> I like your approaches, they are similar to mine, although different.
>  Indeed a systems approach is useful.
>
> Yes, language does not reflect ones thoughts, in fact they are a vast
> simplification of an overall awareness.  But they are the primary tool for
> communication of the intellect.  As you say, ones concept of a word is
> subjective and words therefore have limits.  I believe due to the high
> indoctrination (school and such) that words are provided high importance,
> to
> the point where some believe that they think in words.  I believe that this
> is at the root of Subject Object Metaphysics.
>
> Imagine that one day as a boy you wake up and decide to go through the
> woods
> to a creak nearby.  You have been trained, so you take along your sticky
> notepad and begin pasting over everything you see a name.  So all the
> trees,
> rocks, grasses, ivy, etc all have these little square notes on them, all
> the
> way down to the creak.  A few days later after having learned some more at
> school, you go down again to the creak.  This time you can add
> sub-classifications to the notes you had posted, such as what kind of tree,
> etc.  After a year, the whole walk to the creak will be just one big mass
> of
> yellow note pads.  You would not be able to see the trees or plants anymore
> because they are all covered up.  Yet you would think that you are seeing
> them because you see the names.  This is just a metaphor for the impact of
> labels which describe objects on our views.
>
> Yes, knowledge transfer, learn from your elders.  I do not think the brain
> is any more advanced now (biologically) than it was say 20,000 years ago.
>  However, the complexity of thought is, because we have to learn so many
> facts.  It is still the same brain, with the same emotions, but layered
> with
> a bunch of sticky notes.  We call this advance, but I believe it simply
> covers the subjective with the objective.  We look for solutions without
> rather than within.  I read once that for every psychological word in
> English, there are ten in German, and one hundred in sanskrit.  I believe
> that back many many years, people had a much better appreciation for the
> subjective.  Now we watch TV.
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
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