[MD] Reifying carrots

[MarshaV]

On Sep 12, 2010, at 4:25 AM, Andre Broersen wrote:

> 
> 
> Andre to Marsha:
> How many times do 'we' have to tell you that Bodvar's fucking SOLpositing is illogical!!!
> In the MOQ there is no subjectivity!
> 
> Marsha: I have no intentions of reacting to your drama, psychological bullying or your four-letter words.
> 
> Andre:
> Of course you have no intentions of doing so but we are talking MOQ here. We are talking about
> Mr. Pirsigs MOQ, and this simply states that 'Quality destroys objectivity every time'(ZMM, p351)

Yes, this is true.  It is about caring.   


> 
> Marsha to dmb:
> And I am sick of being told I am anti-intellectual because I think that RMP's "Kill all intellectual patterns. Kill them completely" Is the key to actual awakening to the MoQ's highest point-of-view. Not this, not that. Yes it is my favorite. It is my bottom line, and it is past speculation.
> 
> Andre:
> And I am not convinced you actually understand this 'key'. You seem to take it literally when it really means 'to detach yourself from these patterns',(LILA,p407) to NOT attach to them any inherent status. Yet this is what is happening when you bandy things like 'objectification' and 'reification' around.

"Kill all intellectual patterns." points to mediation/mindfulness which is a technique to awakening and eventually enlightenment.  Reification describes how the mind functions.  It has its usefulness, but to deeply understand the process is to have a new value perspective.    


> This 'perfect little acorn...' as you put it, challenges your own understanding of the intellectual level.  It suggests that reification of concepts produces 'anomalies' so well identified by Phaedrus in his 'platypi' conception. The MOQ asserts an anti-reification, an anti-objectification. It asserts static patterns of value . It asserts Quality, not objectivity!

I am not against reification; it is the way the mind works.  I am for keeping primary in the mind that while it is convenient to analyze and manipulate conceptual objects, they are _mere_ conceptually constructed patterns of ever-changing, interdependent, relative, impermanent value.  Ultimately there are no divisions, everything-is-connected-to-everything.  


> By all means, carry on with your mantra singing and painting in an effort to kill all intellectual patterns but this is a discussion of the MOQ put forward by Mr. Pirsig in an effort to make the world a little bit of a better place to live in, not only for us on a personal level, but also for our future generations and in that process we need our intellectual patterns to combat/challenge these 'anomalies' by perhaps absorbing them within the framework of the root expansion of rationality. In this way we ensure that they are not passed on, and 'that's the highest moral conduct of all.That really advances everything, not just you. The whole world'.

I care as much about the MoQ as anyone on this MD list, and that I offer a different perspective should be seen as perfectly acceptable.  


> This is what, amongst other things, this Discuss is about.(but this is, of course, my own subjective opinion).


To me the MoQ is about awakening.  



Marsha 


 
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