[MD] Reifying carrots - corrected

[MarshaV]

On Sep 12, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Andre Broersen wrote:

> dmb to Marsha:
> 
> But they did. And so it's obviously NOT impossible. We are not hopelessly trapped inside SOM or forever doomed to reify all our concepts. The patient is not identical to his disease. If the patient is inherently diseased or if the defect defines the intellect, then Pirsig's aim of expanding and improving rationality would fail before it even got started. Your view not only dismisses the MOQ's solution, you've ruled it out as impossible in principle. To say this undermines Pirsig's work is actually quite an understatement, unless one uses "undermine" in the original military sense, as part of a siege.
> 
> Andre:
> Thank you for this dmb, it is nice to feel (also intellectually!) that I am not alone in this. I must be honest and say that I get tears in my eyes sometimes (in utter desperation), when also in conversation with Bodvar, it was about the raping (I have no other word for it) of Mr. Pirsig's ideas in his two books and subsequent appearances on dvd, tape and papers.
> 
> The seemingly total misapprehension of what the man is on about.
> 
> And then, having the audacity to use one's own preconceived ideas to interpret ZMM and LILA and then, based on these self same ideas, to criticize the man, is very disheartening to say the least.
> 
> Empty the cup before you start on anything new. There are some on this list who mix their already filled cup with MOQ stuff. You cannot do this. It leads to misapprehensions and blaming Mr. Pirsig for things he is NOT responsible for. You have to take a fresh approach. This takes guts. This means throwing away loads of static patterns.It means uncertainty, it means wobbling, it means throwing yourself in the deep end of experience...it means complete honesty with yourself. This is some bastard of a confrontation! As John mentioned some time ago: metaphysics is not for sissies. Well, certainly the MOQ is not.......... and at the same time it is. It is home.
> 
> Design you cup-MOQ and throw all the past SOM constructed entities therein and see for yourself what is left after the sifting. As I mentioned before, this is what I had hoped this discuss would be about. I am truly glad that some people are listening and responding.


Marsha: 
What's left is unpatterned experience and patterned experience, a very valuable experienced understanding.      

 
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