[MD] self: agent of action & thinker of thoughts

[MarshaV]

On Aug 17, 2011, at 5:50 PM, MarshaV wrote:

> 
> On Aug 17, 2011, at 5:10 PM, MarshaV wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:56 PM, Arlo Bensinger wrote:
>> 
>>> [Marsha]
>>> RMP does, in fact, state that it is an illusion.
>>> 
>>> [Arlo]
>>> Right, Marsha, he states the "autonomous self" is an illusion, because the "autonomous self" is a product of S/O thinking.
>>> 
>>> But if you move up to a MOQ perspective, there are NO illusions OR existants, there are patterns of value. The pattern "self" is no more an illusion (or an existential existant) than a car, or a bird, or a song, or a system of map coordinates.
>>> 
>>> Do you not see that it makes zero sense to say, within a MOQ, that some patterns of value  are "illusions" and some patterns of value are "real"? That's simply importing S/O thinking into the fabric of the MOQ.
>>> 
>>> The "self", within a MOQ, is neither an illusion or an existential existant. It is a pattern of value, one whose value (persistence/stability) is marked by how well it works in describing experience, in other words its experiential value.
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> Yes, the "autonomous self" is an illusion.  I have for a very long time stated that I see the self within the MoQ as a flow of ever-changing, conditionally co-dependent and impermanent, static patterns of inorganic, biological, social and intellectual value in a field of Dynamic Quality.
>> 
> 
> 
> Arlo,  
> 
> Do you understand that maya?
> 
> "In addition to the Dynamic Quality viewpoint of the MoQ corresponding 
> to what Nagarjuna terms sunyatta(ie; the indeterminate or the world 
> of the Buddhas), the static quality viewpoint of the moq also corresponds 
> to _sunyavada_ (ie,the conditioned component or world of _maya_)
> of Nagarjuna.  _Sunyavada_ includes all conceptions of reality including
> metaphysikal views, ideals, religious beliefs, hopes and ambitions; in other
> words,using moq terminology, static quality patterns
> 
>      (McWatt, Anthony, 'AN INTRODUCTION TO ROBERT PIRSIG’S METAPHYSICS OF QUALITY')  
> 


Arlo,

5.6  THE NOTION OF THE SELF 

"An example of _sammuti-sacca_ is the concept of self.  Pirsig follows
 the Buddha's teachings about the 'self' which doesn't recognise that it has any 
real existence and that only 'nothingness' (i.e. Dynamic Quality) is thought to be 
real."


 Marsha

 
 
 
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