[MD] US democracy at work?

[Ian Glendinning]

Hi Andre,

I think compulsory insurances (of various kinds) health, pensions,
injury compensations, etc are progressive (quality increasing) use of
social power. Agreed. (Beyond respect for basic rights and freedoms, I
am not sure laws governing union activities actually help however. If
anything they provides an incentive to "union-bust".)

Naturally people will be angry when "their" representatives are
sidelined by tactical parliamentary processes. This is true on either
side, is my point. The interesting point is why do sophisticated
democracies - like the ones you mention - have houses where these
arcane tactics are still possible. The procedures are exceptional, and
founded on historical checks-and-balances I believe. And, notice, they
rely on there being "parties" - the root problem IMHO - to abuse them.

PS I have to chuckle when Americans give us history lessons.
Dave says Ludlow, I say Peterloo (100 years earlier, almost exactly).

Conservatism = resistance to reforms (by definition). The problem is
one of respect. Casting union "thugs" vs "sleazy" politicians, is the
disrespectful end of partisan politics that makes me yawn on a good
day, despair on a bad one. Not sure calling (American) people fools
helps the dialogue much either.

Ian

On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Andre Broersen <andrebroersen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ian said:
>
> I thought the original point was about the former, the practical workings of
> a democracy,...
>
> Andre:
> Yes Ian , this was the issue I raised. What stunned me was the apparently,
> planned and coordinated effort of one party to (sneakily) bypass some of the
> principles upon which a democracy is based i.e. sabotaging the ability of
> the 'opposition' to exercise control over matters affecting the interests of
> those they represent by upholding the principle of fairness, reasonable
> argumentation and persuasion. It seems to me these everyday [political]
> practices were denied. Perhaps, as far as politics is concerned I am too
> naive eh?
>
> I understand the reasoning...same things as for example Horse outlined is
> happening here as well. Health care insurance here in the Netherlands is
> compulsory (for both private and public employees). Contributing to a
> Pension fund is compulsory for public servants (with no choice of which
> fund). Private employees are encouraged (as Dan suggested)to contribute to a
> Pension fund to ensure for extra provisions after retirement as well and one
> would be a fool not to do so.
>
> Without the 'extra' the basic social security pay upon retirement is enough
> to throw you close to the poverty line.
>
> But the current uncertainties regarding levels of pensions and accumulated
> benefits (agreed upon originally) are the result of the financial crisis and
> financial mismanagement (bad investments) done by pension funds themselves.
> Two important issues are playing here: the fact that you have to contribute
> (their compulsory nature) and the claim, which they have maintained since
> their inception, that contributions are guaranteed safe.
>
> The realization that pension funds are NOT guaranteed and safe has made lots
> of people very angry. May as well have made a regular (voluntary)
> contribution into an investment fund (where you are aware of some of the
> risks). Now, most pension funds have been exposed as being no better than
> investment funds... and a bit less smart.
>
> This has resulted in a loss of trust, of course by many people in their
> 'own' funds (not to mention their own banks but that is a slightly different
> issue) and, relating it back to the US again, I can therefore imagine (as
> Dan points out as well) that many people are very angry at this 'incident'
> in Wisconsin where people's political representatives have been sidelined in
> a most sneaky way.
>
>
> Cheers
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