[MD] X = no-self

[MarshaV]

On Jan 5, 2011, at 5:59 AM, rapsncows at fastmail.fm wrote:

> Marsha,
> 
> I will clean up my questions.
> 
> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Marsha:  
>>>>>> I am a collection of ever-changing, interdependent, inorganic,
>>>>>> biological, social and intellectual static patterns of value entangled
>>>>>> within a field of DQ.  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> [Tim]
>>>>> Marsha, I like the update to 'entangled within a...", but I think that
>>>>> 'field' might bring in associations that you don't intend (EM field...).
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha:
>>>> John is responsible for the 'entanglement' update.
>>> 
>>> [Tim]
>>> by 'John', then, you mean that pattern within yourself which you call
>>> 'John' for pragmatic reasons, so as not to lead to too much confusion,
>>> right?
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> Right.   John, too, is a collection of patterns.  I've probably bumped
>> into 
>> only a very few.
> 
> [Tim]
> the key part of this question was: *within yourself*.  'John' is
> collection of patterns within the collection that is you.  You say: "I
> am a collection of ... patterns [snippage]"; and within this collection
> is a sub-collection you have called 'John' for pragmatic reasons (or
> whatnot).  Is this right?  

Marsha:
The collection isn't laid out in front of me like a bucket of legos.  Maybe the 
missing word is flow.  So back to "I am a flow of ever-changing..."  or better 
yet "I am a flow of bits and pieces of ever-changing..."  There are bits and 
pieces of pattern that are associated with the name John (for pragmatic  
purposes,) but... they are not John.   I have never seen, smelled, heard, 
tasted or touched John.  All I know of John has been conceptually 
constructed with bits and pieces of pattern in reaction to reading his words. 


> The point of this is, another way, you
> recognize the pattern you have called 'John' as internal to you, in line
> with your admittal that you are not aware of any pattern that is not
> included in this collection - which collection we call Marsha for
> pragmatic reasons (or whatnot).

I guess?



>>>>> [Tim] Question 1: are you / can you be, aware of anything that is not included
>>>>> in this 'collection'?
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha:
>>>> Aware?  My answer is no.  There may very well be all sorts of
>>>> unrecognized 
>>>> patterns included in the collection but outside awareness means outside 
>>>> awareness.  That would be an excellent reason, though  to cultivate a
>>>> more 
>>>> subtle awareness.
>>> 
>>> [Tim]
>>> yes, outside awareness means outside awareness.  But on the primary
>>> front, just to be sure, do you hold any belief, hope, or expectation of
>>> a pattern external to the above mentioned 'collection'?
>> 
>> Marsha:
>> Just to be sure, I don't hold any-thing.  These patterns seem to process
>> through 
>> consciousness: ever-changing and interconnected.  By expectation of an
>> external 
>> pattern do you mean a reified fantasy.  Not lately.  If I've
>> misunderstood, you will 
>> need to re-explain your point and question.  
> 
> [Tim]
> fair enough, weak-ish effort on my part.  Perhaps I have gotten at my
> point best in the above.  It was the same point.  But...
> 
> let me ask rather:
> 
> part a: you can account for the word 'expectation' in some intellectual
> way, right?  

Only in a abstracted, reified intellectual way divorced from all other relative,
interdependent processes.    

> For instance, and I wonder how you would say this: Amidst
> the collection of patterns that is Marsha, has there been, from time to
> time, an intellectual (or other classification if you prefer) pattern of
> value that we might call 'expectation of xxxx' (again, for similar
> pragmatic reasons that have permitted us to call Marsha, and to call
> intellectual, social, biological, or inorganic, etc.)?  

Within the confines of "intellectual," does the above explain this?  Or are 
you asking if I have also imagined inorganic, biological and social patterns 
associated with the label John?  


> For instance, an expectation that you will eat your favorite dinner on your
> birthday this week?  OR the like.
> 
> then, assuming yes, part b: Amidst the collection of patterns that is
> Marsha, is there now (or has there been from time to time) an
> intellectual (or other classification if you prefer) pattern of value,
> of expectation, which expectation is that there is, or should be, some
> pattern of value that is not included *within* the collection you/we
> call Marsha?

I don't see how I can imagine a pattern outside past experience. Maybe I can 
discover a dynamic re-combination, or maybe I'll be hit by a original 
dynamic event.  

Please, Tim,  don't ask me to explain how consciousness works unless you 
are prepared to see that I win a Nobel prize.  In other words, you are asking me 
to speculate.  I can watch patterns flow through consciousness; what happens 
before and after I haven't a clue.  I'm a bug, not a genius or accomplished yogi.   


> Tim    

What do you think?


Marsha
 
 

 
___