[MD] The MoQ and Politics?

[Ian Glendinning]

Hi John, addressing your points in reverse order ...

A philosophy of loyalty ? Oh yes. Loyalty, like respect, was no doubt
one of the original virtues. After the virtues we had Virtue (capital
V). After Virtue, MacIntyre asked ... Pirsig answered - Quality
(capital Q). Yes ?

But, seriously.

Following the different drum (from the crowd / mob) involves some kinda faith ?
Careful now, DMB may be listening, but yes, I'd agree with that. It
clearly depends what you have faith in and how blind or contingent
that faith is. So leaving aside the theistic / afterlife choices, it
involves believing there is something "better" than the current crowd
view. Faith in the direction we call "better" (greater quality, small
q), and faith in behaviours and processes that will lead in that
direction without needing faith in any particular object or entity or
end.

Following that faith (as a loner or a minority) involves some kinda
rebel independence and effort / courage over and above the choice of
following the crowd ?
Yes, clearly.

Is that drive messianic, requiring / expecting / hoping the crowd will follow ?
Hardly. More "Life of Brian" I'd say :-)

Caring about the crowd ?
Absolutely - (caring, see the virtues above)

Fighting "against" the crowd ?
Huh. No, no. Ploughing a furrow independent of the crowd, but
respecting the freedoms of the crowd naturally (and hoping the crowd
will respect the individual's freedom too) Tell me you can tell the
difference between doing / arguing one thing, and fighting / arguing
against another ?

Ian

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 5:45 PM, John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Ian,
>
> No apology necessary.  I appreciate well-intended criticism.
>
>
>> Fortunately, we are (can be) more sophisticated socio-intellectual
>> organisms than that monkey, faced with simple "monkey see, monkey do"
>> options in life, despite DMB's reductionist take on ideological
>> choices.
>>
>>
> Well here, I think, is where the analysis of the "messiah person" is
> fascinating.  It is true that we CAN be more sophisticated, but most of us
> are not or choose not to be.  It doesn't seem worth the effort to fight
> against the crowd for most people. And often for  a person who does  have an
> independent enough nature to resist the social forces of group cohesion
> they  then don't care enough about "the crowd" to try and change it.  They
> are loners, rebels, but without a cause. This is what makes messiah-ship a
> relatively rare phenomenon, imo.    The person who goes against the crowd,
> must sacrifice his/her personal comfort and happiness in order to resist the
> social patterns of conformity.  To purposely follow a different drum in the
> face of all this resistance, in the service of something bigger, requires
> either a theistic leaning which hopes for a reward in the afterlife, or some
> sort of faith in an ideal with which they identify.
>
> Loyalty.  I wonder if anybody has ever contemplated a philosophy of Loyalty
> before?
>
> John the sarcastic
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