[MD] The MoQ and Politics?

[John Carl]

Greetings, Ian.

Addressing your points in proper order...

A philosophy of loyalty ? Oh yes. Loyalty, like respect, was no doubt
> one of the original virtues. After the virtues we had Virtue (capital
> V). After Virtue, MacIntyre asked ... Pirsig answered - Quality
> (capital Q). Yes ?
>
> But, seriously.
>

Seriously indeed.  I'm pretty serious about these topics.

For Royce, for instance, loyalty is thee virtue, but we won't go into that
right now, nor Macintyre whom I've not read but I've read a critique of him
by Jackie Kegley in her book on Loyalty and Community.  According to her, he
(Macintyre) falls short by failing to take into account, evil, or more to
the point, evil communities.  She also points out that his critics feel his
defense of virtue is weak.  But then, as you point out, he shares a
similarity with Pirsig.... Hmmm... I thought I said I wasn't going to get
into this and yet here I am.


Ian:


>
> Following the different drum (from the crowd / mob) involves some kinda
> faith ?
> Careful now, DMB may be listening, but yes, I'd agree with that. It
> clearly depends what you have faith in and how blind or contingent
> that faith is. So leaving aside the theistic / afterlife choices, it
> involves believing there is something "better" than the current crowd
> view. Faith in the direction we call "better" (greater quality, small
> q), and faith in behaviours and processes that will lead in that
> direction without needing faith in any particular object or entity or
> end.
>

John:

Right.  What occurs immediately to mind is Socrates drinking the poison.
Some kind of faith must have been involved; it certainly wasn't faith in any
explicit afterlife or reward from God. When we analyze it, what was there
besides that "still, small voice" speaking to him personally and whispering
in his ear?  A voice he'd followed all his life?  The fundamental issue for
the follower of a different drumbeat, is that different drumbeat itself.
DQ, we call it, expressing itself in subtle rhythms that appeal personally.
But there have to be some sort of social reactions of affirmation or the
person represses this weird drumbeat and gives up on it completely.

Ian:


> Following that faith (as a loner or a minority) involves some kinda
> rebel independence and effort / courage over and above the choice of
> following the crowd ?
> Yes, clearly.
>
> Is that drive messianic, requiring / expecting / hoping the crowd will
> follow ?
> Hardly. More "Life of Brian" I'd say :-)
>
> Caring about the crowd ?
> Absolutely - (caring, see the virtues above)
>
> Fighting "against" the crowd ?
> Huh. No, no. Ploughing a furrow independent of the crowd, but
> respecting the freedoms of the crowd naturally (and hoping the crowd
> will respect the individual's freedom too) Tell me you can tell the
> difference between doing / arguing one thing, and fighting / arguing
> against another ?
>
>
John:

Let us call it then, "fighting against crowd-control".  The virtuous fight
isn't so much the individual's struggle to dominate the crowd and control
it, the fight is wherein the individual has to struggle to resist the
natural force the crowd exerts through peer pressure seeking  social
cohesion through conformity, because the individual hears the drumbeat of
betterness in whatever form.

This is where strong communities create strong individuals and by "strong" I
don't mean extremely forceful; I mean strong in rationality and social
security (the attitude, not the govt. program).

Have you read Macintyre much?  What do you think of his "virtue"?

John