[MD] The MoQ and Politics?

[John Carl]

Ok, a bit later, we take up our dialogue again...

On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 3:18 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:

>
> Hi John,
>

Hi Marsha,



>
> >>> I should have said "tricky answer" rather than a "trick answer".
> >>
> >> I answered understanding you meant "trick answer,"  and I wasn't
> >> trying to trick anyone.
> >>
> >>
> > No, I don't think you were.  But what I meant by "tricky" as opposed to
> > "trick" had to do with the intrinsic nature of the formulation - "if you
> > want to change the world, change yourself".  That's a tricky answer, for
> > it's tricky sometimes to tell where the line between subject and object,
> > self and world, can be drawn.  We both freely admit there is no place
> where
> > the line has to be drawn - there's no metaphysically fundamental
> distinction
> > of necessity, so such a line is always a creative act and it can be
> tricky
> > at times, figuring out in the moment where the best point is.
>
> That's why I think the idea of two-truths is so perfect; the lower, static
> truth
> is not negated, but must never be confused with the higher truth.
>
>
>
I see. Yes, that does make a certain sense, as long as you can keep it
straight that the line between the lower and the higher truth is a flexible
one, that depends upon person and circumstance and shouldn't be construed
absolutely.  But I take it that THAT is exactly what you're trying to get
across.



> > Not you, but the formulation itself, seems to be used at times (by
> > myself, you, Pirsig, others) in an evasive way - deflecting the problems
> we
> > see around us.  A way of ignoring what needs to be dealt with, retreating
> > into our isolated shells.  And sometimes that's probably a good thing.
>  So I
> > can't utterly reject it.
> >
> > Maybe I should say that I identify strongly with the propensity in myself
> to
> > use this philosophical outlook as an evasion of responsibility.  That's
> > probably closer to truth than anything and thus I'm not pointing the
> finger
> > at you.  I'm making confession.
>
> I once had responsibilities; I was a daughter, a mother, a wife, an IT
> professional.
> Now I have very small responsibilities and very few needs, but I remember
> the
> pressure.
>
>
Yes?  Well, I'd say I've been moving in the direction of what you describe,
leaving old patterns behind, but I guess what I'm questioning in myself is
that this choice I'm making seems to be exactly an evasion of
responsibility.  You seem to have no qualms at all, whereas I do suffer from
some niggling still small voices that I have more "duties" than I'd admit.
So yes, I see a difference in pressures between the two of us.


> I read that the Buddha once explained to his monks that the purpose of
> living
> the spiritual life according the Buddha was to realize things that should
> be fully
> understood.  I think the only thing he taught to achieve this realization
> was
> meditation.  I suppose I can make that a responsibility.
>
>
Just finished a book with a somewhat pertinent quotation... Lemme find it so
we can see what the author's view has to offer us in a discussion of
"responsibility".

"The essential teaching of the Lord Buddha was: "no more Rebirth" but this
teaching was taken over, hidden, controverted, turned upside down and
defamed into Zen, the invention of Mara the Tempter, Mara the insane, Mara
the Devil -- Today whole big intellectual books are being published about
"Zen" which is nothing but the Devil's Personal war against the essential
teaching of Buddha who said, "Tho she is beautiful, and gifted, 'twere
better for all of you to fall into a Tiger's mouth than to fall into her net
of plans."... But a man is invested with all this trembling tissue, the
Hindus call it "Lila" (Flower) and there's nothing he can do with his tissue
save get him to a monastery..."

Desolation Angels, Jack Kerouac

Here, Ti Jean seems to be of the opinion that the whole world of fleshly
duties brought about by romantic love is an ensnarement, a crime against our
duty to self.  So in this regard, meditation IS an avoidance - a refusal to
be taken in.  And yet, if all followed this teaching, we'd have no more
babies and the world would soon run out of humans.  That seems like a bad
thing, to me.

What do you think?  I myself was intrigued to find a literary reference to
"Lila", so it sorta popped out at me.



> I have thought the MoQ more a bridge between East & West, and pointing
> towards something better.  -  I enjoyed reading Alan Watts, but I think it
> a
> mistake to take his generalizations as representing the truth of all
> peoples
> of the East, let alone Buddhism/Taoism/Hinduism.  China is very pragmatic,
> while India is metaphysical, or so I've heard.
>
>
Yes then, something better indeed.  I agree.  We need something better.  In
the end, I don't think Kerouac was all that satisfied with his Buddhism
either.



> > Everything is relative, Marsha.  For me, "not doing" is very easy!  And
> > thus, something which I need to struggle against at times.
>
> Sometimes 'not doing' is very difficult.  I've cut down on my posts, not
> stopped
> them.  But what has been ringing in my ears are Dan's words:  "We're all
> degenerates.  Period."   True, true, so true...
>
>
Well then, if we're going to be fair and follow the Middle Way, I think I
ought to point out that we're all equally messiahs, then.  And to withhold
our messiah-ship from each other is at least as immoral as foisting off our
degeneracy on each other.

This is my main point these days, and something I am working on and writing
about whenever I get a chance.  That is, whenever the "lower duties" let me
spend time on the higher!



Cleaning out stuff is difficult, especially when it comes to what to leave
> in
> and what to leave out. -  I'm procrastinating.  ;-)
>
>
I still believe that the secret to happiness is storage sheds.  Lots and
lots of external storage sheds.  I like to make them in a long line, so they
function as fencing as well as sheds.  Linear access, and all that, with
nothing kept in the living spaces but what is absolutely necessary.



> It's snowing at the moment: light, Ivory flakes.  There are windows with
> white
> flower boxes filled with pine boughs and pine cones on each side of the
> entrance
> to my cottage.  On the flower boxes I've hung big red bows.  There are
> icicles
> dripping along the front of the house, some 5-feet long and crystal clear.
>  When
> the sun hits them my heart melts.
>
>
I dwell above the Valley Fogs, and my heart exults when I come back to the
foothills from visiting those dreary places.  I need to visit them more
because I could use a bit of exultation these days.  I've had to cut off my
normal means of exultation because to get a truck driver's license, they
drug test you regularly.  And without a little exultation once in a while,
my heart freezes.

Yours,

John