[MD] The MoQ and Politics?

[MarshaV]

Hi John,


On Jan 22, 2011, at 3:31 PM, John Carl wrote:

> Good day, Marsha,
> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> I should have said "tricky answer" rather than a "trick answer".
>> 
>> I answered understanding you meant "trick answer,"  and I wasn't
>> trying to trick anyone.
>> 
>> 
> No, I don't think you were.  But what I meant by "tricky" as opposed to
> "trick" had to do with the intrinsic nature of the formulation - "if you
> want to change the world, change yourself".  That's a tricky answer, for
> it's tricky sometimes to tell where the line between subject and object,
> self and world, can be drawn.  We both freely admit there is no place where
> the line has to be drawn - there's no metaphysically fundamental distinction
> of necessity, so such a line is always a creative act and it can be tricky
> at times, figuring out in the moment where the best point is.

That's why I think the idea of two-truths is so perfect; the lower, static truth 
is not negated, but must never be confused with the higher truth.  



>>> I dunno, Marsha, it feels like evasion to me.
>> 
>> There was no question in your previous post, so what could I possibly
>> evading?
>> 
>> 
> Again, not you, but the formulation itself, seems to be used at times (by
> myself, you, Pirsig, others) in an evasive way - deflecting the problems we
> see around us.  A way of ignoring what needs to be dealt with, retreating
> into our isolated shells.  And sometimes that's probably a good thing.  So I
> can't utterly reject it.
> 
> Maybe I should say that I identify strongly with the propensity in myself to
> use this philosophical outlook as an evasion of responsibility.  That's
> probably closer to truth than anything and thus I'm not pointing the finger
> at you.  I'm making confession.

I once had responsibilities; I was a daughter, a mother, a wife, an IT professional.  
Now I have very small responsibilities and very few needs, but I remember the 
pressure. 

I read that the Buddha once explained to his monks that the purpose of living 
the spiritual life according the Buddha was to realize things that should be fully 
understood.  I think the only thing he taught to achieve this realization was 
meditation.  I suppose I can make that a responsibility.  


>>> And the fact is, the Eastern Ways of Liberation seem to promote a certain
>>> fatalism wherein nothing much gets done in countries where it's
>> prominent.
>> 
>> This statement seems to be insinuating that there are countries in the East
>> filled
>> with liberated citizens who are also fatalistic.   This may be true, but
>> I've never
>> heard of such a country.
>> 
>> 
> Well there are cultural tendencies which stem from certain outlooks, and I
> think it's appropriate to examine the pragmatic outworkings of Buddhist
> philsophy/religion.  I think ZAMM and the MoQ have been stated as a blending
> of East and West, a necessary meeting ground.  This combination wouldn't be
> necessary if the Eastern Ways of liberation (Watt's term for
> Buddhism/Taoism/Hinduism) held all the answers.  We'd just convert, eh?

I have thought the MoQ more a bridge between East & West, and pointing 
towards something better.  -  I enjoyed reading Alan Watts, but I think it a 
mistake to take his generalizations as representing the truth of all peoples 
of the East, let alone Buddhism/Taoism/Hinduism.  China is very pragmatic,
while India is metaphysical, or so I've heard.  


>> The outworkings of this philosophical stance don't seem all that
>> productive
>>> to me.  My first construction boss was my dad, and he had a saying "DO
>>> something, even if it's wrong".  He hated to see guys standing around
>> dithering.
>> 
>> First you agree that Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj is correct, but then narrow
>> his statement and disagree.  I think his comment needs to be understood
>> from a nondualistic point-of-view where there is no separation between 
>> I and "the world"  (Quality).
>> 
>> 
> 
> My study has not been comprehensive.  You're certainly right there.  My
> brother is very enthusiastic about "non-duality".  He talks about it all the
> time and I've agreed to read a book on it so perhaps I can offer a more
> informed discussion in the future.  At present, there's something that I
> don't quite like, but it's hard to say what, or why.

I think this is what the Buddha meant by that which should be fully 
understood.   But I hope you read the paragraph posted in my reply to 
Mark.  Can't win, can't lose; simple, but not easy...  


>> I don't know how you are applying "fatalism."  I don't see where Eastern
>> philosophies/religions are any more fatalistic than Western philosophies/
>> religions.
>> 
>> 
> 
> Well it's kind of a cliche that's applied to the East frequently, that
> "they" are a fatalistic people.  Resigned to Karma.  Perhaps the
> philosophies themselves are not so, but when taught to people and tribes,
> the fallout of the teachings do produce a more fatalistic view than western
> thinking.  I can do some digging and quoting if you want me to support this
> more rigorously.

I understand karma to be action.  That doesn't seem an excuse for anything.  
Was it a quote by someone Eastern or Western stating that the Eastern view 
is more fatalistic.  -  I'm not from the East so I would not be the best person 
to defend such an accusation, but I don't believe it either.  


>> Would 'not doing' be such a horrible thing?
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> Everything is relative, Marsha.  For me, "not doing" is very easy!  And
> thus, something which I need to struggle against at times.

Sometimes 'not doing' is very difficult.  I've cut down on my posts, not stopped 
them.  But what has been ringing in my ears are Dan's words:  "We're all
degenerates.  Period."   True, true, so true...   


>> p.s.  It is because of Platt that I have read more of Wordsworth's poetry.
>> I'm happy
>> the poem I selected meant something to you too.
>> 
>> 
>> p.p.s.  The bald eagle came a visiting yesterday.  He sat for the longest
>> time on a
>> huge pine.  I watched and then scrambled to get my camera, but the battery
>> was
>> not charged.  -  This morning during the snow storm a pair of red-tail
>> hawks were
>> sitting in another tree for short while.  Soooo wonderful!
>> 
>> 
>> 
> Here in the NorCal foothills, we are experiencing warm days while the valley
> floor is getting lots of fog.  I can just see the top of it in the evening
> like wide cotton sea, and me up above it all.
> 
> The good weather has been a special blessing since I've been all week moving
> and removing every single item from all the nooks and crannies of a house
> we've been living in for 18 years.  A tedious process but it's finally
> done.  Woo hoo!
> 
> Next step is to move in a small crew of workers, who will begin to fix the
> place up and get it looking nice.  I think I like the idea of turning it
> into a sort of Boarding home for hippies, renting rooms out by the week, but
> we're a ways from that yet.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> John


Bravo.  Cleaning out stuff is difficult, especially when it comes to what to leave in 
and what to leave out. -  I'm procrastinating.  ;-)  

It's snowing at the moment: light, Ivory flakes.  There are windows with white 
flower boxes filled with pine boughs and pine cones on each side of the entrance 
to my cottage.  On the flower boxes I've hung big red bows.  There are icicles 
dripping along the front of the house, some 5-feet long and crystal clear.  When 
the sun hits them my heart melts.   


Marsha


 
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