[MD] Words and concepts
MarshaV
valkyr at att.net
Sun Jun 12 07:58:12 PDT 2011
Ron,
And I am trying to clear up the misunderstanding too.
Thanks,
Marsha
On Jun 12, 2011, at 10:54 AM, X Acto wrote:
> Just trying to clear up some misunderstandings
>
> Why all the vanity?
>
> really nobody cares what you do.
>
> What we would like is a closer following with the charter rules
> of philosophic discussion as a member of the discuss.
>
> if it's not too difficult.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Sent: Sun, June 12, 2011 10:40:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] Words and concepts
>
>
> Ron,
>
> It might be that some of you are trying to turn me into a static
> person with just one MoQ idea; I am not that. I consider myself
> to be a flow of ever-changing, overlapping, interconnected
> inorganic, biological, social and intellectual static patterns
> within a field of Dynamic Quality.
>
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 12, 2011, at 10:11 AM, MarshaV wrote:
>
>>
>> Ron,
>>
>> I have no idea what you are talking about.
>>
>> I recently had a houseguest, and of course I talked a little about the MoQ.
>> When asked "what is a static pattern?", I found my definition quite useful
>> as a starting point of explanation. I am not trying to subject any definition
>
>> concerning the Intellectual Level on anyone.
>>
>>
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 12, 2011, at 9:58 AM, X Acto wrote:
>>
>>> Marsha,
>>> Your stance appears to be a reactionary response to objectivism. Like a slave
>
>>> who
>>> after having been freed still battles with the chains of bondage.
>>>
>>> What is being argued is that it is already agreed apon that Quality is
>> Dynamic.
>>> It's what unites us as a group that rejects objectivism.
>>>
>>> But in order to understand, to function, to act moraly, it must
>>> be inteligible. To be moral is to be inteligible, to have limit, order
>>> and meaning . To make prefferences as everchanging patterns
>>> of value. It's what it means to be a collection of choices.
>>>
>>> Intellect is the most moral level, the highest form of good.
>>>
>>> This is a crucial conflict point for the SOM as intellect camp.
>>>
>>> .......Ron
>>>
>>>
>>> ...........
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>> Sent: Sun, June 12, 2011 8:49:54 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Words and concepts
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Horse,
>>>
>>> I think a great place to look for "ever-changing" as I present it is in the MoQ
>>>
>>> Textbook 5.8.4 THE MOQ, DUKKHA AND AVIDAYA (IGNORANCE)
>>>
>>>
>>> "... As Hagen (1997, p.30) notes, one of the most fundamental truths noted by
>>
>>> the Buddha is that all aspects of our experience are in constant flux and
>>> change. According to the Buddha, when a person ignores this truth they
>>> subject themselves to dukkha."
>>>
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> "... Following Taoism, Hagen sees that the fundamental nature of reality is
>>> change and reality can be handled more effectively if this is realised. This is
>>>
>>> because though irritation and discomfort will tend to arise, they will also
>>> eventually tend to subside. Dukkha occurs primarily because we wish things were
>>>
>>> different i.e. had a permanent, static nature."
>>>
>>> "In order to understand what is being said here, one should try and imagine
>>> all things, objects of experience and oneself, the one who is experiencing, as
>>
>>> just a flow of perceptions. We do not know that there is something ‘out there.’
>>>
>>> We have only experiences of colours, shapes, tactile data, and so on. We also
>
>>> don’t know that we ourselves are anything than a further series of experiences.
>>>
>>> Taken together, there is only an ever-changing flow of perceptions
>>> (vijnaptimatra). (Williams, 1989, p.83)"
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> "This is supported by Herbert Guenther (1957, p.144) who adds:
>>>
>>> "Experience is the central theme of Buddhism, not theoretical postulation and
>>
>>> deductive verification. Since no experience occurs more than once and all
>>> repeated experiences actually are only analogous occurrences, it follows that a
>>>
>>> thing or material substance can only be said to be a series of events
>>> interpreted as a thing, having no more substantiality than any other series of
>>
>>> events we may arbitrarily single out.""
>>>
>>> "After some thought, I think Guenther’s comment is valid as I can’t think of
>
>>> any events that are repeated exactly. Moreover, like the concept of ‘self’,
>>> there’s no absolute objective rule to judge when one event starts and another
>
>>> stops. This means that any concept or term is fundamentally indeterminate,
>>> imprecise and, as time passes, increasingly less useful."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have meant what is very similar to what is quoted here.
>>>
>>>
>>> Marsha
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 12, 2011, at 7:47 AM, MarshaV wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Horse,
>>>>
>>>> I have only a static 'understanding' of the MoQ. I am not trying, one way or
>>
>>>> another, to make anybody else accept it. I am still exploring different
>>>> aspects. Patterns happens to be one area that I found interesting right from
>>
>>>> the beginning. My mention of Arlo was just kidding. I meant no harm. I think
>>>>
>>>> Arlo's project is great.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marsha
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 12, 2011, at 7:18 AM, Horse wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>
>>>>> While I'm sure Arlo will be flattered, the reason that Dave spends so much time
>>>>>
>>>>> on what you say is because, over the years, you have managed, consistently, to
>>>>
>>>>> misunderstand Pirsigs MoQ.
>>>>> You seem to have a very good grasp of Bo's MoQ, Marsha's MoQ, etc., etc.
>>>>> However neither of the aforementioned (or the etc.'s) appear to have much in
>>
>>>>> common with the MoQ as described by Robert M. Pirsig and this, I believe, is
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>> point that DMB is trying to convey.
>>>>> He (and others) also needs to spend that amount of time because (as with Bo
>
>>>>> previously) you are spending more than a reasonable amount of time promoting a
>>>>
>>>>> misinterpretation of Pirsigs MoQ on a forum that is here to discuss Pirsig's
>>
>>>>> MoQ.
>>>>>
>>>>> Still, as Dave says in another post, it has given him (and a few others) the
>>
>>>>> chance to defend the MoQ against the sort of misinterpretations that could (and
>>>>>
>>>>> does in at least on case) cause confusion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Horse
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/06/2011 20:51, MarshaV wrote:
>>>>>> dmb,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm so flattered that you need so much of my attention. Nine out of ten of
>>
>>>>>> your posts are directed towards what I have said. While I think you are cute,
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>
>>>>>> still cannot vote for you to become prom queen. I am going to vote for
>>> Arlo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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