[MD] Evolution

[Ian Glendinning]

OK Dan, I get your key point ... (as I said I was sure you already
knew what I was saying)

Your question ..
"My question to Dave was that if we do not know what's better, then how
can we will ourselves towards it?"

I alluded to answering that question without giving any examples.
Clearly our "knowledge" of what is "better" is imperfect, but so far
as we believe we know what is better and believe we understand how
evolution works - is there any doubt that we can wilfully influence
evolution ?

We do it with plants and domesticated animals and ideas every day ......

Ian

On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Dan Glover <daneglover at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello everyone
>
> On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 4:15 AM, Ian Glendinning
> <ian.glendinning at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dave, Dan,
>>
>> Absolutely Dave, natural selection occurs in all living levels of
>> nature - basic Darwinism.
>> In the socio-intellectual levels we have the added complication of
>> human intent and free-will based choices, but the natural selection
>> doesn't go away.
>
> Hi Ian
>
> Well, I certainly never said that natural selection goes away. What I
> said was that natural selection isn't dependent upon free will. John
> and others seem convinced that Quality and free will are synonymous.
> This seems to imply that we can will ourselves towards what's
> better... Dynamic Quality, if you will. RMP makes it clear that we
> can't know that.
>
> My question to Dave was that if we do not know what's better, then how
> can we will ourselves towards it?
>
>>Ian:
>> At that pre-intellectual cutting edge, life-changing events happen
>> without rational intent. The memes march on just as the genes do at
>> the biological level.
>
> Dan:
> Again, the question isn't whether evolution is occurring at all four
> levels. That wouldn't make sense as they are evolutionary levels as
> defined within the framework of the MOQ. The question is, is free will
> involved, or not?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Dan
>
>>
>> Ian
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 8:01 PM, david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dan said:
>>>  Natural selection pertains to the biological level. There is no choice involved. The fittest survive to pass on those survival traits while the less fit hit an evolutionary dead end. At the biological level, the environment seems to determine the fittest.
>>>
>>> dmb says:
>>> Well, there is that section in chapter 11 of Lila where Pirsig describes the role of "spur of the moment decisions" that direct the progress of evolution as "in fact, Dynamic Quality itself. DQ, the source of all things, the pre-intellectual cutting edge of reality, always appears as 'spur of the moment.' Where else could it appear?" (142)
>>>
>>> These decisions are not made deliberately in the human sense, of course, but are choices made within whatever range of possible action is available to the evolving species in question. I mean, a rat will get off the hot stove too. Hopefully.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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