[MD] Taking off the glasses?

[118]

Hi Marsha,


On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 6:36 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>
>
> Marsha:
> Yes, the MoQ goes a long way to help intellectually understand the innate tendency to reify does not represent the fundamental nature of reality.  The fundamental nature of reality is undivided, unknowable and undefineable.  Empirical evidence of this may be gained though techniques such as Zen meditation.  I wonder how you've empirically experienced this undifferentiated, fundamental nature of reality by reading about it in a book?

Mark:
My position would be that intellectual understanding IS a
REPRESENTATION of the fundamental nature of reality.  There is no way
for us to dissociate ourselves from Reality.  Impossible.  I
experience the fundamental nature of reality every second of every
day, so does everyone, it is impossible not to.  Reading a book is one
example of such experience, Zen meditation is another.  There is on
difference.  Perhaps the important thing to realize is that such is
the case.

There is no need to look for something beyond, since it is all here,
all now.  We are the fundamental nature of reality, and we can divide
and define it as much as we want, there are no reality police.  It is
this conceptually driven dissociation that Buddhism tries to correct.
Pirsig also speaks to it when he talked about the Zen in motorcycle
maintenance.  Even the repair of a motorcycle is Zen practice.  The
more we speak of something OTHER than THIS that is real, the more
dissociated we get.  It is like searching for happiness in the bushes
and under rocks.  Happiness is not something to find, it is something
to realize.

Yes, empirical evidence can be gained (created) through Zen
meditation.  But, if one thinks they need to Zen meditate to find
unity, then they are trying too hard and will remain stuck looking for
something, they should go out and have fun.  There is nothing to find,
or as the Zen master would say: "it is nothing special".  Nirvana
literally means to "breathe out".  We need to encourage others to stop
holding their breath (clinging), rather than perpetuate this dichotomy
between our thoughts and some other Reality.  Being Reality, that is
fundamental unity.
>
>
> Hagen:
>  "We can't comprehend Reality with our intellects.  We can't pull it into a static view of some thing.  All our explanations are necessarily provisional.  They're just rigid frames of what is actually motion and fluidity.  In other words, if you think of how Reality is, you can be sure that's how it isn't.  Reality simply cannot be put into conceptual form --- not even through analogy, for there's nothing like it.  Reality simply doesn't fit into concepts at all.
>        (Hagen, Steve, ‘Buddhism: Plain and Simple’, p.71)

Mark:
Steve my friend, what we do is create Reality with our intellect,
there is nothing to comprehend except ourselves.  To seek explanation
is to assume there is something separate from oneself which can be
explained.  This is not Buddhism, it is some kind of Western God
seeking behaviour.

If as you say, your explanation of motion and fluidity is provisional,
what is it provisional to?  The concepts of motion and fludity are
about as rigid as they come, so it is NOT "actually motion and
fluidity".  To say so means you have missed the whole point.  The
point is: NOT to point, like you do.

The act of thinking and conceptualizing IS Reality.  We cannot escape
to an UnReal world, there is no way out (see below).  Steven, you are
so caught up in your provisional explanations, that you do not see
they are provisional, and you will get yourself caught in some kind of
enless loop if you do.  Provisionality has nothing to do with it.
Nada.  If you believe that there is nothing like conceptual reality,
then go climb a mountain.  Perhaps you will change your mind.
Concepts are part of reality.  'Nuff said.

Stevo, pal, step back for a second, and think this thing through.


(And David Gilmour sings...)
"There's no way out of here, when you come in, you're in for good
There was no promise made, the part you've played, the chance you took

There are no boundaries set, the timing yet, you waste it still
So it slips thru your hands, like grains of sand, you watch it go
There's no time to be lost, you'll pay the cost, so get it right

There is no way out of here, when you come in you're in for good

And never was there an answer, there an answer
Not without listening, without seeing

There are no answers here, when you look out you don't see in
There was no promise made, the part you've played, the chance you took
There's no way out of here, when you come in you're in for good!"

Reverently yours,
Mark

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