[MD] Relativism, a definition

Tue Jan 3 22:38:41 PST 2012

Hello Carl,

I can't really say.  I tried very hard to "get" the Hindu philosophy.  I read Patanjali so many times, and other texts, until my head began to swim.  I learned and practiced hatha yoga, breathing techniques and meditation.  I spent many weekends going to retreats, and attended a two-week training session devoted to becoming a hatha yoga teacher.  But in the end I gave up because I couldn't "get it" and went back to university to give Western philosophy a try.  I eventually found ZAMM and then LILA.  I knew nothing about Buddhism until one day someone posted a few paragraphs of the Platform Sutra.  Those few paragraphs compelled me to read the full sutra, and then the Heart Sutra and the Diamond Sutra; then I read the MMK and more books on emptiness.  Blah, blah, blah...  The point is that I was ready to hear.  I was ready to see.  It was my experiences with Hinduism and western philosophy that attracted me to the MoQ, and it was the MoQ that pointed towards studying Buddhism and that helped me "get it", even to this low level.  The Wisdom that Buddhism offers is tremendous, yet its all interconnected.  

Now, one of my very favorite Hindu books is 'I Am That' by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj (a recommendation from someone on the MD).  I cannot really separate Hinduism, the MoQ and Buddhism, and, of course and most importantly: meditation/mindfulness.  I suppose if I reread Pantajali and other of those Veda texts today, they would be far more understandable than back in those early days.  Buddha was Hindu.  I suppose the point is that they are pointing to the same moon. 

Marsha

On Jan 3, 2012, at 10:39 PM, "Carl Thames" <cthames at centurytel.net> wrote:

> Marsha, quick question: What do you think of the MoQ as a distillation of Hinduism?  I know Buddhist philosophy started there, how about the MoQ?
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "MarshaV" <valkyr at att.net>
> To: "MoQ" <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 6:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] Relativism, a definition
> 
> 
>> 
>> Mark,
>> 
>> Since my interest is comparing and contrasting the MoQ with Buddhism, I think it most appropriate to quote from Steve Hagen's book when it comes with such a STRONG  recommendation from RMP.  The only other book that I can think of with such a recommendation might be F. S. C. Northrop's book. Besides, to the limits of my experience, Steve Hagen's book is very insightful.  But, of course, I read many other sources too.
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 3, 2012, at 3:12 AM, 118 <ununoctiums at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Marsha,
>>> Yes I have read the book, it is on my shelf.  I believe we are beyond the simplistic explanations which Hagen delivers.  ...
>>> 
>>> Snip...
>>> 
>>> But if we use Hagen's presentation, it would seem to me that discussing MoQ is not just "day to day" thoughts we can easily discuss.  MoQ is more about ultimate truth.  I am not saying that the concepts of MoQ are ultimate, just like what Hagen writes is not ultimate truth.  What I am saying is that contemplation through MoQ can bring one to becoming that Ultimate or direct perception.  The end result of MoQ is exactly the same as the end result of Buddhism.
>>> 
>>> Therefore I find it somewhat trivial to try to relate to MoQ in relative terms.  Such terms are fine for planning a fishing trip, but not for discussing the nature of reality.  I think Hagen would agree with me on that.
>>> 
>>> Snip
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Sent laboriously from an iPhone,
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> On Jan 2, 2012, at 8:56 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Mark,
>>>> 
>>>> Both relativism and pragmatism are intellectual static patterns of value.  Just as pragmatism has had its cultural/philosophical ups-ans-downs, ins-and-outs and was pretty much dead-in-the-water, it is presently having a revival, so too may the fearful be silenced when it comes to relativism.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> "While I am thinking about it there is a very good book on Buddhism recently out called 'Buddhism, Plain and Simple', by Steve Hagen and published by Tuttle Publishing. I recommend you get it because it shows the similarities, between the MOQ and Zen Buddhism more clearly than any other I have seen."
>>>>            (Pirsig to McWatt, May 6th 1998.)
>>>> 
>>>> From Steve Hagen's book:
>>>> 
>>>> "Nagarjuna, the brilliant Buddhist philosopher of second-century India, wrote,
>>>> 
>>>>   Those who do not understand the distinction between
>>>>    [the] two truths do not understand the profound truth
>>>>   embodied in the Buddha's message.
>>>> 
>>>> "These two truths are relative and Absolute Truth.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -------------
>>>> 
>>>> (Hagen, Steve, ‘Buddhism: Plain and Simple’, p.142)
>> 
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