[MD] belief

118 ununoctiums at gmail.com
Fri Nov 2 13:39:26 PDT 2012 

Hi Marsha,

I am not sure of the "well" part. 

It must be considered that direct experience is something we create.  In mindfulness it becomes apparent that thoughts are part of such direct experience.  Therefore it is not appropriate to distinguish concepts from direct experience in terms of mindfulness, as Pirsig presents MoQ.

Since MoQ is a metaphysics, Pirsig can postulate whatever he wants, but by doing so he opens such metaphysics to all sorts of logical traps, and conundrums.  Therefore it is always important to remember that MoQ is not Quality.

Since DG is a self-proclaimed stenographer in LC, Pirsig is doing his best to provide DG with enough input to think for himself.  Unfortunately, as often happens with SQ, the literal is all that is sometimes assimilated, leading to this oppressive idea of what "direct experience" is, which flies in the face of Quality.  There are many who wish to create dogma out of Quality and use a metaphysics to do so.

The practice of mindfulness makes one aware of the nature of thoughts, as an experience we create which is fundamentally no different from a hot stove.  As writings of Buddha say, Buddha found that thoughts come and go and have no inherent existence.  He taught that the ego was due to co-arising phenomenon, and that it is impossible to control thinking with thinking.  In mindfulness one allows thoughts to come and go without attaching an ego to them.  They are something that happen to us.  Of course in our modern day belief system, we "think we are our thoughts".  You can appreciate the irony there.

MoQ is a metaphysical encapsulation which attempts to bring awareness to Quality.  Once MoQ, or any utterances of Pirsig's are taken as Dogma, we have moved away from what Pirsig is trying to teach.  This is why I find the likes of dmb to be extremely destructive to Quality.  Still, if such people want to remain in the two dimensions of SQ, I have no problem.  It is their misleading influence which must be kept in check.

Probably a longer answer than you wanted, all from my iPhone as I sit on a hill which is a Chumash power spot.

Cheers,


Mark

On Nov 2, 2012, at 3:26 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:

> 
> Hey Mark,
> 
> Doesn't this exchange between RMP and Dan express awareness/mindfulness well?  
> 
> ---  
> 
> 
> RMP:
> ... Remember that the central reality of the MOQ is not an object or a subject or anything else. It is understood by direct experience only and not by reasoning of any kind...
> 
> DG:
> Direct experience does not mean direct experience per se but rather experience directly perceived. It may just be a matter of semantics but I have always argued there is no such thing as direct experience. Now I sense I have been looking at the question backwards, so to speak.
> 
> RMP:
> Yes
>          (LILA's CHILD)
> 
> 
> 
> Marsha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 1, 2012, at 1:41 AM, MarshaV wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Mark,
>> 
>> Yes, supposedly the Buddha taught awareness, plain and simple.
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Nov 1, 2012, at 1:17 AM, 118 <ununoctiums at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Yeah, sounds like Sartre, that Bufoon!  He can have his meaningless universe, it sure has no Quality. 
>>> 
>>> I did not know you we're an existentialist.  In many ways Buddhism is existentialist, except it trends towards determinism if one follows the literature.  Of course Buddha was not a determinist, he believed the Self could reach nirvana.  This made him an anti-existentialist as well.  Too bad nobody understands his teachings here in the West.  He spoke of Quality, plain and simple.
>>> 
>>> He did not believe in Reality.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> On Oct 27, 2012, at 3:22 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Mark,
>>>> 
>>>> "To believe is to know you believe, and to know you believe is not to believe."
>>>>   (Sartre, Jean-Paul)
>>>> 
>>>> Not this, not that.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Oct 25, 2012, at 11:46 PM, 118 <ununoctiums at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Marsha,
>>>>> I am not sure of the reflection part.  The sound that I am hearing I am creating with my ears and brain.  Sound is the process of transformation.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Belief?  Belief is that relationship we create with existence.  Such belief could be Quality.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mark
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 25, 2012, at 1:03 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ... changed the subject
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mark,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It seems to me the sound you are hearing ("It sounds like ...") is a reflection of your own voice and song. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What else might be said about belief...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> James P. Carse, Religious War In Light of the Infinite Game, SALT talk (1' 18"):   
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdIP6HilbWE   
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Marsha 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Oct 22, 2012, at 10:43 PM, 118 <ununoctiums at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks for that Marsha.  It sounds like the certainty of belief.  I appreciate your honesty.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Oct 22, 2012, at 9:50 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have found contentment with my own ignorance which has led to a deep, endless respect for the question over and above any possible answer.  For me, it is the question that contains intuition and caring.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Oct 22, 2012, at 3:42 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>>>>>>>> At the moment, the continuous present is valuable.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Marsha
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