[MD] East meets West
Jan Anders Andersson
jananderses at telia.com
Fri Oct 5 02:35:04 PDT 2012
m4ite7=+nN8gO_fWQ0v2YmGtrnCmRDVi=t4pecPJRvKWg at mail.gmail.com> <ADD4B706-379B-4512-8DB9-F45881F92EAA at telia.com> <CAP2xam6OLqeVDm_f=TOY_zTUK8vDaXTeF4b8SRh1QWR_X 1A at mail.gmail.com>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
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Thanks Mark.
4 levels and 3 dimensions of the thermodynamics is enough for me so far.
I have some funny ideas for a sequel but nothing definite yet. I think you will be surprised anyway.
One track takes a lot of math and physics to read first.
Don't forget to post a review on iTunes bookstore.
May betterness be with you
Jan Anders
5 okt 2012 kl. 07.35 skrev 118:
> Hi JA,
> Congratulations!
> Hope you have a sequel in the works. Don't wait 20 years and write one
> just out of necessity! Remember, beware of fame.
>
> I have been using MoQ for almost 40 years now and am not even aware of it.
> That is, until I post on this forum to explain how it works. I hope your
> wrench is becoming more handy for you. All it takes is practice, my
> friend. You will get the hang of it and forget you are using it too.
> Leave the instructions behind and let the motorcycle become you.
>
> Regards,
> Mark
>
> On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Jan Anders Andersson
> <jananderses at telia.com>wrote:
>
>> m4ite7=+nN8gO_fWQ0v2YmGtrnCmRDVi=t4pecPJRvKWg at mail.gmail.com>
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084)
>>
>> Hi Mark
>>
>> Today's score: (all these funny names sounds like some weird poetry, not
>> to mention the list of the names of the ‘likers’)
>>
>> Örebro, Örebro Län
>> London, England'
>> San Benigno Canavese, Piemonte
>> Rohtak, Haryana
>> Vadodara, Gujarat
>> New Delhi, Delhi
>> Norwich, England
>> Mysore, Karnataka
>> Mandatoriccio, Calabria
>> Kohima, Nagaland
>> Zaragoza, Aragon
>> Conversano, Puglia
>> Waterloo, Ontario
>> Toronto, Ontario
>> Metz, Lorraine
>> Moncton, New Brunswick
>> Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
>> Gropello Cairoli, Lombardia
>> Amravati, Maharashtra
>> Bilaspur, Chhattisgarh
>>
>> Seems like East and US is losing ground...
>>
>> Keep up the good reading, don't forget to take care of the organic level
>> in between.
>> The world out there is waiting for you using your MOQ wrench.
>>
>> Jan Anders
>>
>>
>> 3 okt 2012 kl. 05.44 skrev 118:
>>
>>> Hi Jan Anders,
>>>
>>> Thank you for the input on your book. I must admit I did read your book
>>> rather quickly as I do sometimes to get the overall feel of a book such
>> as
>>> this. I appreciate the time you took to provide more explanation. I am
>>> providing some MoQ related comments below, so that you can get an idea
>>> where I am coming from so far as Quality is concerned.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Jan Anders Andersson <
>> jananderses at telia.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>> I think you should be interested of what "Money and the Art of Losing
>>>> Control" has to do with MOQ as it seems that you want to know more about
>>>> Quality. MALC is generally a story about how to USE (or not use:-) the
>>>> knowledge of MOQ and Quality in our daily ordinary life. I don't
>> consider
>>>> MOQ to be just some mind game. It's an intellectual tool to be used.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Mark:
>>> I believe this is a place where we may differ in terms of Quality. We
>> both
>>> probably agree that MoQ is a metaphysical presentation of what Pirsig
>> terms
>>> Quality. He uses this term with good reason since we all know what
>> Quality
>>> is without having to define it. However, it is my impression that
>> Quality
>>> does not fit within the traditional S/O interpretation of reality. For
>> me,
>>> Quality is a manner of interpreting reality in a manner which does away
>>> with subjects and objects. Therefore, when I think of "using" Quality, I
>>> think in terms of interpreting the world as Quality (seeing the world as
>>> objectless). The metaphysics presented in MoQ is one example of how this
>>> can be done, but the interpretation of existence through a Quality
>> paradigm
>>> can be explained in many ways. While the levels are interesting, they
>> are
>>> not necessary for beginning a journey by Quality. This should be
>> obvious,
>>> since many people knew what Quality was long before Lila was written.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> JA: One of the most basic issues of the MOQ is change. Without change
>>>> there would be no cosmological evolution. Without the possibility of a
>>>> change there would be no meaning in motorcycle maintenance, getting
>> drunk
>>>> and picking up bar ladies.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Mark:
>>> As presented, MoQ could encompass change. It would not be the first
>>> metaphysics to do so, since an interpretation through science also brings
>>> change to the forefront. So I do not think that Change is a big part of
>> an
>>> interpretation through Quality. I think the main force of such
>>> interpretation comes from the ability to completely dismiss subjects and
>>> objects.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> JA: Change deserves time-space. Time is crucial for the experience of
>>>> Quality because there is a moment before the experience, under and
>> after.
>>>> Every pattern is repeated, from time to time, it is frequently
>> recurring.
>>>> Truth is something that we can presume will occur again with great
>>>> significance. Every time it meets our expectations we will call it true.
>>>> From the smallest Higgs-Boson particle to galaxies in the universe we
>> can
>>>> see that it is a Way, Pattern or Method, to gain Energy, with its Form
>> and
>>>> with its Value. If something doesn't have a certain amount of Energy, a
>>>> characteristic Form and an influencing Value, it is not proved to exist
>> as
>>>> a real static pattern.
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark:
>>> I understand why you bring in traditional scientific paradigms, for that
>> is
>>> what we are brought up with. However, such examples can lead directly
>> away
>>> from an appreciation of Quality. For what science does is create objects
>>> as its main mode of interpretation of reality. These objects are very
>>> misleading and can cloud any understanding of awareness through Quality.
>>> The more objects and examples one brings in from this scientific
>>> discipline, the more one is drawn away from Pirsig's Quality, in my
>> opinion.
>>>
>>> However, I do see what you are trying to do, and i like your examples.
>> We
>>> make things up like Energy and Patterns, for that is our way
>>> of interpreting existence in traditional Western ways. That is, we create
>>> these things. That we see there is a Way, it is only because we have
>>> created such a Way. Of course this is important, since it is of great
>>> value to make the cosmos personal. The world we create "out there" is
>>> actually happening in our heads and is determined by the make up of our
>>> bodies. It is the interaction of that "out there" and our bodies that
>>> becomes the reality we are sensing. As such, we cannot rightly separate
>>> ourselves from that which we see. They are both the same thing.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> JA: The conditions that let matter, patterns arise as Static Values
>>>> depending on Dynamic Quality are important to know. One of the most
>>>> important experiences for any pattern is the time experience. Before,
>> now
>>>> and later.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Mark:
>>> So far as I can tell, patterns do not arrise, we create them. We are
>>> responsible for the patterns by which we interpret the world. Without
>>> anybody to create these patterns they do not exist. Patterning is one of
>>> the highest achievements of Man. The other one is, of course, humor.
>>> Matter does not arise, we bring it to life and call it matter. We are
>> the
>>> creators of such matter since they become patterns in our heads. This is
>>> what is meant by the Ghost of Reason. Matter as we traditionally use the
>>> word is a ghost, it is a fabrication.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> JA: Every event, every episode in the book MALC is an example of the
>>>> influence of Quality and the levels affecting our reality patterns. The
>>>> trip starts and ends at the same place, like a circular movement. It has
>>>> its certain top and bottom points. Every emotional sensation is
>>>> representing a value transmitted to the owner of the human pattern, how
>> to
>>>> read the 42 guiding "lights" from the biological level and make the best
>>>> choice from that. Biological patterns build their patterns upon their
>>>> experience from inorganic characteristic patterns. When Elsa is a sleep,
>>>> when John falls asleep, they are leaving the social level and all that
>> is
>>>> left is their biological and inorganic patterns. Social patterns depend
>> on
>>>> biological values, some time it is true, sometime the intellectual
>> pattern
>>>> in the mind mirror show a false picture of the social level.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Mark:
>>> OK, cool, I will keep that in mind when I get there (second time around).
>>>
>>>
>>>> JA: When the spear passes Johns face he's facing the danger of a
>>>> One-dimensional pattern thrown by a disguised enemy with an untrue
>> Quality
>>>> experience. The dogs represents static power with not much intellectual
>>>> understanding. Our modern era dominated by Monetaristic thinking is very
>>>> dangerus because it is sort of a one-dimensional pattern. The "economic
>>>> man" is so primitive and that is why I suspect Ayn Rand to be a
>> undercover
>>>> agent sent by Josef Stalin to infiltrate western thinking into some
>> kind of
>>>> photonegative mindmap of the economic machinery planned by the russian
>>>> communists. MALC is my contribution to broaden the perspective and show
>> the
>>>> other important dimensions of economics.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Mark: When you speak of "primitive man" it reminds me of a movie I just
>>> saw called The Master. It is meant to be about "Scientology", where we
>> are
>>> trapped in our primitive brains due to evil forces, of something. A
>> pretty
>>> good movie. I really have no problem with Scientology although I am not
>>> a practitioner, it is Scientism that I have a problem with. We have
>> become
>>> so bewitched by the world of objects and their "measurement" that we do
>> not
>>> see that they are simply shadows being cast within our brains, and we
>>> forget what it is that is casting these shadows. Of course Plato speaks
>> of
>>> this as well.
>>>
>>> The point of MoQ is to get out of the cave of shadows. Forget Science
>> and
>>> all that it professes. All that stuff is entertaining, but is also
>>> addictive. People actually think that light is a wave or a particle. Of
>>> course it is neither of these things, such models are
>>> simply descriptions of light. Light has nothing to do with waves or
>>> particles, those are just patterns we create. If I paint a landscape, I
>> do
>>> not then confuse my painting for the actual landscape. In the same way,
>> we
>>> should not confuse light with our description of it. Scientism is a dead
>>> end. It leads nowhere in terms of metaphysics.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> JA: When John is chased by the ice floes, he's experiences the danger
>>>> of Two-dimensional patterns. When the passing train makes the ground to
>>>> vibrate it is a power like exergy in change that creates new patterns.
>>>> When the rabbit is crushed by the tyre it changes its Three-dimensional
>>>> pattern into a two-dimensional and it dies. Flat dog, no good.
>>>> When John walks through the dressing room his biological pattern is
>>>> causing trouble for the female social environment. His biological nose
>> is
>>>> misleading him and so on. He is a lousy card player, why doesn't he care
>>>> more for it?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I like the two dimensional patterns for that is what objects are.
>> If
>>> we live in a world of self created objects, we become two dimensional.
>> MoQ
>>> provides one way in which to escape this form of existence. We are
>> allowed
>>> to stand up and actually look around rather than scurry around as
>> shadows.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> JA: Thanks for the inspiration. Maybe you should get more from a reread
>>>> with this in mind.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks, I will.
>>>
>>> Hope what I present makes sense. I find much more value in a world
>> without
>>> objects. Like I say, Quality is a different way of looking at reality.
>>> Most would call it insane. But that is simply because it has not caught
>>> on, yet...
>>>
>>> I have to say, that I interpret the levels in a very different way than
>> you
>>> do, as well. Whatever works, heh?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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