[MD] East meets West

118 ununoctiums at gmail.com
Fri Oct 5 14:24:49 PDT 2012 

Hi JA,
Certainly thermodynamics is an accepted scientific method for the presentation of "what is".  As a physical biochemist I am aware of its shortcomings.  It is a self contained system that is based on definitions.

However, if it helps you to explain a Quality approach to perceiving reality, more power to you.  I am working beyond thermodynamics in the area of metaphysics.  Such interpretation goes beyond the equations you are fond of.

Kind regards,


Mark

On Oct 5, 2012, at 2:35 AM, Jan Anders Andersson <jananderses at telia.com> wrote:

> m4ite7=+nN8gO_fWQ0v2YmGtrnCmRDVi=t4pecPJRvKWg at mail.gmail.com> <ADD4B706-379B-4512-8DB9-F45881F92EAA at telia.com> <CAP2xam6OLqeVDm_f=TOY_zTUK8vDaXTeF4b8SRh1QWR_X1A at mail.gmail.com>
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
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> 
> Thanks Mark.
> 
> 4 levels and 3 dimensions of the thermodynamics is enough for me so far.
> I have some funny ideas for a sequel but nothing definite yet. I think you will be surprised anyway.
> 
> One track takes a lot of math and physics to read first.
> 
> Don't forget to post a review on iTunes bookstore.
> 
> May betterness be with you
> 
> Jan Anders
> 
> 
> 5 okt 2012 kl. 07.35 skrev 118:
> 
>> Hi JA,
>> Congratulations!
>> Hope you have a sequel in the works.  Don't wait 20 years and write one
>> just out of necessity!  Remember, beware of fame.
>> 
>> I have been using MoQ for almost 40 years now and am not even aware of it.
>> That is, until I post on this forum to explain how it works.  I hope your
>> wrench is becoming more handy for you.  All it takes is practice, my
>> friend.  You will get the hang of it and forget you are using it too.
>> Leave the instructions behind and let the motorcycle become you.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Mark
>> 
>> On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 6:39 AM, Jan Anders Andersson
>> <jananderses at telia.com>wrote:
>> 
>>> m4ite7=+nN8gO_fWQ0v2YmGtrnCmRDVi=t4pecPJRvKWg at mail.gmail.com>
>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084)
>>> 
>>> Hi Mark
>>> 
>>> Today's score: (all these funny names sounds like some weird poetry, not
>>> to mention the list of the names of the ‘likers’)
>>> 
>>> Örebro, Örebro Län
>>> London, England'
>>> San Benigno Canavese, Piemonte
>>> Rohtak, Haryana
>>> Vadodara, Gujarat
>>> New Delhi, Delhi
>>> Norwich, England
>>> Mysore, Karnataka
>>> Mandatoriccio, Calabria
>>> Kohima, Nagaland
>>> Zaragoza, Aragon
>>> Conversano, Puglia
>>> Waterloo, Ontario
>>> Toronto, Ontario
>>> Metz, Lorraine
>>> Moncton, New Brunswick
>>> Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
>>> Gropello Cairoli, Lombardia
>>> Amravati, Maharashtra
>>> Bilaspur, Chhattisgarh
>>> 
>>> Seems like East and US is losing ground...
>>> 
>>> Keep up the good reading, don't forget to take care of the organic level
>>> in between.
>>> The world out there is waiting for you using your MOQ wrench.
>>> 
>>> Jan Anders
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 3 okt 2012 kl. 05.44 skrev 118:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Jan Anders,
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you for the input on your book.  I must admit I did read your book
>>>> rather quickly as I do sometimes to get the overall feel of a book such
>>> as
>>>> this.  I appreciate the time you took to provide more explanation.  I am
>>>> providing some MoQ related comments below, so that you can get an idea
>>>> where I am coming from so far as Quality is concerned.
>>>> 
>>>> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Jan Anders Andersson <
>>> jananderses at telia.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mark
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think you should be interested of what "Money and the Art of Losing
>>>>> Control" has to do with MOQ as it seems that you want to know more about
>>>>> Quality. MALC is generally a story about how to USE (or not use:-) the
>>>>> knowledge of MOQ and Quality in our daily ordinary life.  I don't
>>> consider
>>>>> MOQ to be just some mind game. It's an intellectual tool to be used.
>>>> 
>>>> Mark:
>>>> I believe this is a place where we may differ in terms of Quality.  We
>>> both
>>>> probably agree that MoQ is a metaphysical presentation of what Pirsig
>>> terms
>>>> Quality.  He uses this term with good reason since we all know what
>>> Quality
>>>> is without having to define it.  However, it is my impression that
>>> Quality
>>>> does not fit within the traditional S/O interpretation of reality.  For
>>> me,
>>>> Quality is a manner of interpreting reality in a manner which does away
>>>> with subjects and objects.  Therefore, when I think of "using" Quality, I
>>>> think in terms of interpreting the world as Quality (seeing the world as
>>>> objectless).  The metaphysics presented in MoQ is one example of how this
>>>> can be done, but the interpretation of existence through a Quality
>>> paradigm
>>>> can be explained in many ways.  While the levels are interesting, they
>>> are
>>>> not necessary for beginning a journey by Quality.  This should be
>>> obvious,
>>>> since many people knew what Quality was long before Lila was written.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> JA:  One of the most basic issues of the MOQ is change. Without change
>>>>> there would be no cosmological evolution. Without the possibility of a
>>>>> change there would be no meaning in motorcycle maintenance, getting
>>> drunk
>>>>> and picking up bar ladies.
>>>> 
>>>> Mark:
>>>> As presented, MoQ could encompass change.  It would not be the first
>>>> metaphysics to do so, since an interpretation through science also brings
>>>> change to the forefront.  So I do not think that Change is a big part of
>>> an
>>>> interpretation through Quality.  I think the main force of such
>>>> interpretation comes from the ability to completely dismiss subjects and
>>>> objects.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> JA:  Change deserves time-space. Time is crucial for the experience of
>>>>> Quality because there is a moment before the experience, under and
>>> after.
>>>>> Every pattern is repeated, from time to time, it is frequently
>>> recurring.
>>>>> Truth is something that we can presume will occur again with great
>>>>> significance. Every time it meets our expectations we will call it true.
>>>>> From the smallest Higgs-Boson particle to galaxies in the universe we
>>> can
>>>>> see that it is a Way, Pattern or Method, to gain Energy, with its Form
>>> and
>>>>> with its Value. If something doesn't have a certain amount of Energy, a
>>>>> characteristic Form and an influencing Value, it is not proved to exist
>>> as
>>>>> a real static pattern.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Mark:
>>>> I understand why you bring in traditional scientific paradigms, for that
>>> is
>>>> what we are brought up with.  However, such examples can lead directly
>>> away
>>>> from an appreciation of Quality.  For what science does is create objects
>>>> as its main mode of interpretation of reality.  These objects are very
>>>> misleading and can cloud any understanding of awareness through Quality.
>>>> The more objects and examples one brings in from this scientific
>>>> discipline, the more one is drawn away from Pirsig's Quality, in my
>>> opinion.
>>>> 
>>>> However, I do see what you are trying to do, and i like your examples.
>>> We
>>>> make things up like Energy and Patterns, for that is our way
>>>> of interpreting existence in traditional Western ways. That is, we create
>>>> these things.  That we see there is a Way, it is only because we have
>>>> created such a Way.  Of course this is important, since it is of great
>>>> value to make the cosmos personal.  The world we create "out there" is
>>>> actually happening in our heads and is determined by the make up of our
>>>> bodies.  It is the interaction of that "out there" and our bodies that
>>>> becomes the reality we are sensing.  As such, we cannot rightly separate
>>>> ourselves from that which we see. They are both the same thing.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> JA:  The conditions that let matter, patterns arise as Static Values
>>>>> depending on Dynamic Quality are important to know. One of the most
>>>>> important experiences for any pattern is the time experience. Before,
>>> now
>>>>> and later.
>>>> 
>>>> Mark:
>>>> So far as I can tell, patterns do not arrise, we create them.  We are
>>>> responsible for the patterns by which we interpret the world.  Without
>>>> anybody to create these patterns they do not exist.  Patterning is one of
>>>> the highest achievements of Man.  The other one is, of course, humor.
>>>> Matter does not arise, we bring it to life and call it matter.  We are
>>> the
>>>> creators of such matter since they become patterns in our heads.  This is
>>>> what is meant by the Ghost of Reason.  Matter as we traditionally use the
>>>> word is a ghost, it is a fabrication.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> JA:  Every event, every episode in the book MALC is an example of the
>>>>> influence of Quality and the levels affecting our reality patterns. The
>>>>> trip starts and ends at the same place, like a circular movement. It has
>>>>> its certain top and bottom points. Every emotional sensation is
>>>>> representing a value transmitted to the owner of the human pattern, how
>>> to
>>>>> read the 42 guiding "lights" from the biological level and make the best
>>>>> choice from that. Biological patterns build their patterns upon their
>>>>> experience from inorganic characteristic patterns. When Elsa is a sleep,
>>>>> when John falls asleep, they are leaving the social level and all that
>>> is
>>>>> left is their biological and inorganic patterns. Social patterns depend
>>> on
>>>>> biological values, some time it is true, sometime the intellectual
>>> pattern
>>>>> in the mind mirror show a false picture of the social level.
>>>> 
>>>> Mark:
>>>> OK, cool, I will keep that in mind when I get there (second time around).
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> JA:   When the spear passes Johns face he's facing the danger of a
>>>>> One-dimensional pattern thrown by a disguised enemy with an untrue
>>> Quality
>>>>> experience. The dogs represents static power with not much intellectual
>>>>> understanding. Our modern era dominated by Monetaristic thinking is very
>>>>> dangerus because it is sort of a one-dimensional pattern. The "economic
>>>>> man" is so primitive and that is why I suspect Ayn Rand to be a
>>> undercover
>>>>> agent sent by Josef Stalin to infiltrate western thinking into some
>>> kind of
>>>>> photonegative mindmap of the economic machinery planned by the russian
>>>>> communists. MALC is my contribution to broaden the perspective and show
>>> the
>>>>> other important dimensions of economics.
>>>> 
>>>> Mark:  When you speak of "primitive man" it reminds me of a movie I just
>>>> saw called The Master.  It is meant to be about "Scientology", where we
>>> are
>>>> trapped in our primitive brains due to evil forces, of something.  A
>>> pretty
>>>> good movie.  I really have no problem with Scientology although I am not
>>>> a practitioner, it is Scientism that I have a problem with.  We have
>>> become
>>>> so bewitched by the world of objects and their "measurement" that we do
>>> not
>>>> see that they are simply shadows being cast within our brains, and we
>>>> forget what it is that is casting these shadows.  Of course Plato speaks
>>> of
>>>> this as well.
>>>> 
>>>> The point of MoQ is to get out of the cave of shadows.  Forget Science
>>> and
>>>> all that it professes.  All that stuff is entertaining, but is also
>>>> addictive.  People actually think that light is a wave or a particle.  Of
>>>> course it is neither of these things, such models are
>>>> simply descriptions of light.  Light has nothing to do with waves or
>>>> particles, those are just patterns we create.  If I paint a landscape, I
>>> do
>>>> not then confuse my painting for the actual landscape.  In the same way,
>>> we
>>>> should not confuse light with our description of it.  Scientism is a dead
>>>> end.  It leads nowhere in terms of metaphysics.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> JA:  When John is chased by the ice floes, he's experiences the danger
>>>>> of Two-dimensional patterns. When the passing train makes the ground to
>>>>> vibrate it is a power like exergy in change that creates new patterns.
>>>>> When the rabbit is crushed by the tyre it changes its Three-dimensional
>>>>> pattern into a two-dimensional and it dies. Flat dog, no good.
>>>>> When John walks through the dressing room his biological pattern is
>>>>> causing trouble for the female social environment. His biological nose
>>> is
>>>>> misleading him and so on. He is a lousy card player, why doesn't he care
>>>>> more for it?
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, I like the two dimensional patterns for that is what objects are.
>>> If
>>>> we live in a world of self created objects, we become two dimensional.
>>> MoQ
>>>> provides one way in which to escape this form of existence.  We are
>>> allowed
>>>> to stand up and actually look around rather than scurry around as
>>> shadows.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> JA:  Thanks for the inspiration. Maybe you should get more from a reread
>>>>> with this in mind.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks, I will.
>>>> 
>>>> Hope what I present makes sense.  I find much more value in a world
>>> without
>>>> objects.  Like I say, Quality is a different way of looking at reality.
>>>> Most would call it insane.  But that is simply because it has not caught
>>>> on, yet...
>>>> 
>>>> I have to say, that I interpret the levels in a very different way than
>>> you
>>>> do, as well.  Whatever works, heh?
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> All the best,
>>>> 
>>>> Mark
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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