[MD] Putting SOM back into the MOQ by excluding SQ, let's not do that say some of us

[David Morey]

Hi Arlo

Yes you keep going back to things that have nothing to do with what I am 
saying, has
a robot hacked your account? Why are you so afraid of addressing what I am
actually saying? Has a church of MOQ developed here? What a horrible grave 
for
the MOQ. If you come up with any serious responses I will respond but the 
below
is a joke.

what a shame
DM


[Arlo]
Right, DMB, and I feel like this is ground we keep going over. David's 
statement can easily be seen as "objects have to exist before the subject 
goes on to conceptualize them". Its using "MOQ terminology" but it really 
shows a complete 'miss' of the MOQ's central premise. You can go back to ZMM 
for this simply and elegantly stated:

"The very existence of subject and object themselves is deduced from the 
Quality event. The Quality event is the cause of the subjects and objects, 
which are then mistakenly presumed to be the cause of the Quality!" (ZMM)

In LILA, Pirsig expands up this:

By this [James] meant that subjects and objects are not the starting points 
of experience. Subjects and objects are secondary. They are concepts derived 
from something more fundamental which he described as "the immediate flux of 
life which furnishes the material to our later reflection with its 
conceptual categories." In this basic flux of experience, the distinctions 
of reflective thought, such as those between consciousness and content, 
subject and object, mind and matter, have not yet emerged in the forms which 
we make them. Pure experience cannot be called either physical or psychical: 
it logically precedes this distinction. ... What the Metaphysics of Quality 
adds to James' pragmatism and his radical empiricism is the idea that the 
primal reality from which subjects and objects spring is value.






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