[MD] static patterns of value

[MarshaV]

dmb,

> On Oct 1, 2013, at 6:00 PM, david buchanan wrote:
> 
> "The MOQ starts with the source of undifferentiated perception itself as the ultimate reality. The very first differentiation is probably `change`. The second one may be `before and after`. From this sense of `before and after` emerge more complex concepts of time."
> 
> 
> (letter from ROBERT M. PIRSIG to Anthony McWatt, February 23rd, 1998)
> 
> 
> 
> Marsha said to dmb:
> 'Change' is a concept!   Keep Dynamic Quality concept free! 
> 
> 
> 
> dmb says:
> Yes, I know. You're saying that as if you were refuting something I claimed.

Marsha:
'Change' is a concept, and you have assigned to Dynamic Quality (see below statements by you):


On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:20 PM, david buchanan claims:
"DQ, or reality itself is ever-changing. That's what "dynamic" means."


On Sep 26, 2013, at 4:31 PM, david buchanan wrote:
"... obviously, because "constant change" is basically the definition of "dynamic"."


While RMP has stated 'change' is a concept:
"Change is probably the first concept emerging from this Dynamic experience..."
     (RMP, 'LILA's Child', Annotation 57)


Marsha:
And please, the first sentence of my definition of static patterns of value stats "Static patterns of value are repetitive processes (multiple events), conditionally co-dependent, impermanent and ever-changing, that pragmatically tend to persist and change within a stable, predictable pattern."  Please note the static patterns "persist and change within a stable, predictable pattern."  Dynamic Quality is beyond language; the undefinable should not be held to any definition.  Please note: 

Dynamic Quality is not (conceptually) knowable, not definable, not divisible, not bounded, not patterned, not dualistic, "not this, not that"; there is nothing to change.  



> dmb:
> If I'm guilty of assigning any concept to DQ, it would be "pre-conceptual experience", which  really just reflects the language in the evidence. To say this experience is unpatterned or ever-changing MEANS that it can't be conceptualized or defined. These are ways of using concepts to keep the concepts out of it. Words like "pre-conceptual" and "undefinable" are and the phrase "not this, not that" are only negative descriptions. They only tell you what DQ is not.

Marsha:
And stating that Dynamic Quality is "not this, not that" is the best approach, as RMP has suggested:  

RMP:
"... my statement that Dynamic Quality is always affirmative was not a wise statement, since it constitutes a limitation or partial definition of Dynamic Quality. Whenever one talks about Dynamic Quality someone else can take whatever is said and make a static pattern out of it and then dialectically oppose that pattern. The best answer to the question, “What is Dynamic Quality?” is the ancient Vedic one——“Not this, not that.”"



> "Dynamic Quality is the term given by Pirsig to the CONTINUALLY CHANGING FLUX of immediate reality while static quality refers to any concept abstracted from this flux." (McWatt)
> 
> "...just a flow of perceptions. We do not know that there is something "out there". We have only experiences of colours, shapes, tactile data, and so on. ..., there is only an EVER-CHANGING FLOW of perceptions." (Paul Williams, "Mahayana Buddhism", p.83/84).

Marsha:
Here's the full quote.  Please note the word IMAGINE; what is being presented is no more than a imagination experiment.  

"In order to understand what is being said here, one should try and imagine all things, objects of experience and oneself, the one who is experiencing, as just a flow of perceptions. We do not know that there is something ‘out there.’ We have only experiences of colours, shapes, tactile data, and so on. We also don’t know that we ourselves are anything than a further series of experiences. Taken together, there is only an ever-changing flow of perceptions (vijnaptimatra). (Williams, 1989, p.83)"
          (MoQ Textbook)


> "... something more fundamental which [James] described as 'THE IMMEDIATE FLUX OF LIFE ...this basic FLUX OF EXPERIENCE"                    

Marsha:
Your hacked up quotes should not convince anybody.  Dynamic Quality cannot be confined by words.  It is NOT this, NOT that.   
 
 
 
Marsha
 
 



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