[MD] Static patterns are ever-changing?!? i

[david buchanan]

It's been a while, but I have addressed this question (about pre-conceputal experience) many, many times. No matter how hard I try, the answers never satisfy and the question comes back around again. 

Over a year ago, 8th of July, 2012,  Marsha asked:
How can Dynamic Quality or 'pure experience', which is undifferentiated, include perceptions which are differentiated? 


Sigh. I'd really rather not go through it all again, especially with these guys. There's no way they're going to understand it.   But here are a few thoughts for you to ponder...

On Jul 7, 2012, at 3:43 PM, david buchanan quoted:

“When Zen teachers introduce students to nirvana (which the MOQ translates as the world of pure undifferentiated value) they do not do so with books and thesis. They sit the students in a room until their clutter of intellectual knowledge is abandoned (especially values judgments!) and the pure vision of the newborn infant is regained” (McWatt 2004, 83).


"Only new-born babes, or men in semi-coma from sleep, drugs, illnesses, or blows, may be assumed to have an experience pure in the literal sense of that which is not yet any definite what, tho ready to be all sorts of whats; full both of oneness and of manyness, but in respects that don't appear; changing throughout, yet so confusedly that its phases interpenetrate and no points, either of distinction or ofidentity, can be caught. Pure experience in this state is but another name for feeling or sensation. But the flux of it no sooner comes than it tends to fill itself with emphases, and these salient parts become identified and fixed and abstracted; so that experience now flows as if shot through with adjectives and nouns and prepositions and conjunctions. Its purity is only a relative term, meaning the proportional amount of unverbalized sensation which it still embodies." - William James - Essays in Radical Empiricism.


" 'There must always be a discrepancy between concepts and reality, because the former are static and discontinuous while the latter is dynamic and flowing.' Here James had chosen exactly the same words Phaedrus had used for the basic subdivision of the Metaphysics of Quality." Pirsig



> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 23:27:06 +0200
> From: parser666 at gmail.com
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Static patterns are ever-changing?!? i
> 
> Adrie said:

> Pirsig was very correct to propose two models with overlapping fields. Mr
> Turners document does not contain one single mistake,
> nor is there a flaw in the models.But however it is true that the evolving
> reality is at least partially to be awaited,ie,undefined in the future.
> there are no models that are perfect or contain the full monty of 100%
> realitymirroring.
> 
> I was following the debate very toughtfully.
> 
> to say the least , Dm has a philosophikal point that is worth investigating
> , -pre-conceptual-,as if it should be interesting(it schould)!
> to abstract pre-conceptual out of the generalisations it is sheltering in
> for too long.Not as a widget to inject it in the models, but as a stand
> alone proposal to investigate a philosophical missing link.It does not have
> to be som, but subject /object reasoning is sometimes a better nuance to
> speak about physikal entity's.
> 
> Please understand, Buchanan is correct that this does not belong in the
> Moq,and imho , as a derivate it will fail to fit the proposed models.
> it is not my opinion however that Mr turner intended to rule out -pre
> conceptual-nor did Pirsig, Pirsig overruled it.
> 
> Adrie