[MD] Static patterns are ever-changing?!? i

[david buchanan]

"Dynamic Quality is defined constantly by everyone. Consciousness can be described is a process of defining Dynamic Quality. But once the definitions emerge, they are static patterns and no longer apply to Dynamic Quality. So one can say correctly that Dynamic Quality is both infinitely definable and undefinable because definition never exhausts it." [Robert Pirsig, LILA'S CHILD]

"Quality is a direct experience independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions." (Lila, 5)

"Unfortunately 'static' and 'Dynamic' have a meaning in physics that refers to space and time and motion and this can be confused with the static and Dynamic of the MOQ" - Lila's Child.

"Once you start to define Quality as a basic substance you are off on a completely different path from the MOQ." -- Pirsig's introduction to the MOQ



David Morey said to dmb:
concepts abstract patterns and regularities found in experience,  look up patterns in Wiki, patterns are regularities or symmetries directly experienced,  these are two different words,  I can't find anyone saying that all pattern recognition depends on concepts,  however this is what you seem to be saying,... 


dmb says:
Wow. This is just unbelievable. You're still not grasping a very simple point. If you don't grasp this idea, David, you will continue to produce more contradictory drivel. I've already used some pretty strong language to try to stress the importance this point but you are apparently not impressed so let me be perfectly frank. Every time you commit this error,I cringe and I think less of your intelligence. I'm beginning to think that you have dyslexia or some kind of learning disorder. Please, give me a reason to think otherwise.

Pirsig is the one who says that static patterns ARE concepts. As it clearly says in the quote from McWatt, "Static patterns of quality" is Pirsig's term and he uses it to refer to any concept. Patterns do NOT depend on concepts because they ARE concepts. Both terms, "static quality" and "concepts", mean EXACTLY the same thing. Like I said, you are simply misusing the terms of the MOQ. You are using Pirsig terms but you are replacing Pirsig's definitions with your own meanings. What's even worse is that your illegitimate use of Pirsig's terms is almost exactly what Pirsig does NOT mean by those terms. Look, all you need to do is grasp the meaning of this single sentence....
 "Dynamic Quality is the term GIVEN BY PIRSIG to the CONTINUALLY CHANGING FLUX of immediate reality while static [patterns of] quality REFERS TO ANY CONCEPT abstracted from this flux." (McWatt)

See? "Static patterns" is Pirsig's term. That term refers to any concept. Static patterns and concepts are NOT two different things. They are two names for the same thing. 



David Morey said to dmb:
but dynamic flow is clearly full of pattern, the patterns that we value,  the pattern if hot or cold,  red and blue,  patterns prior to conceptualisation


dmb says:
If you understand that patterns ARE concepts, as I do, then your claim that patterns are prior to conceptualization can be translated into the phrase "concepts prior to conceptualization". That's the nonsense that makes me cringe and makes you look so foolish. As you should be able to see from the textual evidence, static patterns ARE abstracted concepts. 

"Dynamic Quality is the term given by Pirsig to the CONTINUALLY CHANGING FLUX of immediate reality while static quality refers to ANY CONCEPT abstracted from this flux." (McWatt)



David Morey said to dmb: you think all patterns require concepts,...  I do not think so,  we add concepts to patterns ... patterns do not require concepts  ...concepts are how we understand patterns...


dmb says:
This makes me cringe four times. Four more times, you have made yourself look illiterate. Your repeated claim is at odds with Pirsig, McWatt and everything I know about the MOQ. Translating your contradictory nonsense, you have just said a ridiculous thing four times and with conviction too. "You think all concepts require concepts,... I do not think so, we add concepts to concepts... concepts do not require concepts ...concepts are how we understand concepts." I realize you're not intending to say these stupid things, but your misuse of Pirsig's terms has led you down this path into sheer nonsense. It's embarrassing drivel. Look at what this simple piece of evidence says. It's just one sentence...

"Dynamic Quality is the term given by Pirsig to the CONTINUALLY CHANGING FLUX of immediate reality while static quality refers to ANY CONCEPT ABSTRACTED from this flux." (McWatt)



David Morey said to dmb:... we experience patterns before the higher level divide of concepts come into play, I am saying that patterns allow us to create concepts,  you seem to think concepts create patterns,


dmb says:
No, I don't think that concepts create patterns because concepts ARE patterns. Static patterns of quality ARE the conceptualizations themselves. Both terms refer to one and the same thing. CONCEPTS = static patterns and conversely STATIC PATTERNS = concepts. How do we know this? From the textual evidence. Think about this neat little sentence, for example...

"Dynamic Quality is the term given by Pirsig to the CONTINUALLY CHANGING FLUX of immediate reality while static quality refers to any concept abstracted from this flux." (McWatt)


David Morey said to dmb:
...not really,  if like me you see patterns and concepts as 2 different things


dmb says:
Yes, I realize that you see pattens and concepts as two different things. THAT is exactly where you've gone wrong. Your view is contradicted by the textual evidence. As McWatt so concisely explains (His Doctoral thesis is all about the MOQ and Pirsig himself spent years with McWatt slowly walking him through it), "static quality refers to any concept abstracted from" the flux of experience. As the evidence shows, your view is very confused version and is at odds with the actual MOQ....

"Dynamic Quality is the term given by Pirsig to the CONTINUALLY CHANGING FLUX of immediate reality while static quality refers to any concept abstracted from this flux." (McWatt)


David Morey said to dmb: pure experience  ..is surely full of shapes,  symmetries and patterns.

dmb says:
No, pure experience is full of patterns. According to the evidence, patterns are concepts and pure experience means "pre-conceptual" experience. Pure experience is also known as unpatterned experience or dynamic experience, which means that it is NOT static and NOT patterned. To say that pure experience is full of patterns is to say that unpatterned experience is full of patterns. Clearly, this is a daft thing to say. It is a contradiction is terms. It is a violation of logic and it defies the textual evidence. Have you seen the following sentence before? If you consider the point contained therein, you'll see the absurdity in your claim.... 

"Dynamic Quality is the term given by Pirsig to the CONTINUALLY CHANGING FLUX of immediate reality while static quality refers to any concept abstracted from this flux." (McWatt)


David Morey said to dmb:....what have you got against the word pattern,  concepts do not create patterns,


dmb says:

I like the word "pattern" just fine and use it all the time, usually in conjunction with "static" BECAUSE "static pattern" is so central to the MOQ. What I'm doing here is defending the meaning assigned to "static patterns" by the author of the MOQ. I'm trying to show you what Pirsig is doing with that term, what he means by that term BECAUSE you are misusing it, converting it into its opposite. We can see how Pirsig uses that term (and how he uses the other terms) by looking at the textual evidence. If we ignore or invert the evidence, then we are no longer talking about the MOQ. Your misuse of the terms is so awful and wrong, that you are not talking about the MOQ. You're just talking about David Morey's opinions and those opinions, as I've tried to show, are so terribly confused that it's embarrassing and cringe-worthy. Here is some evidence that explains the actual meanings of these key terms...

"Dynamic Quality is the term given by Pirsig to the CONTINUALLY CHANGING FLUX of immediate reality while static quality refers to any concept abstracted from this flux." (McWatt)


David Morey said to dmb:...you want to make all patterns dependent on concepts in the MOQ,  I say this is a bad idea...   ...patterns precede concepts...


dmb says:
Make all pattens DEPENDENT on concepts? No, I'm saying that static quality is not to be confused Dynamic Quality. The first and most important distinction in the MOQ is the line between static quality and Dynamic Quality. This is where you've gone wrong, right at the beginning. Patterns cannot possibly precede concepts because those terms mean exactly the same thing. If one is using the terms properly, your claim would mean "patterns precede patterns" or "concepts precede concepts". Either way, your claim is meaningless nonsense. You can see this for yourself once you understand the meaning of the following evidence. 

Have I ever showed you this succinct little gem before? Please notice that it says DQ is the term Pirsig uses for the flux and BY CONTRAST "static quality refers to any concept abstracted from this flux". ANY concept, he says. That means all concepts ARE static patterns and all static patterns ARE concepts. And what is being conceptualized? 

"Dynamic Quality is the term given by Pirsig to the CONTINUALLY CHANGING FLUX of immediate reality while static quality refers to any concept abstracted from this flux." (McWatt)