[MD] Zen at War

Mon Oct 21 11:37:56 PDT 2013

I have followed this discussion group for some time, and must say, I am amased. Daves thoughts on Zen at war, and  Ian's comments made me thinking. The discussions here are at times interesting, but very often, I must admit, becomes nothing else than boring. non intellectual (I can live with that) word ping pong of the type "my father is stronger than yours (what is strong anyway?). And let me say right away, your post Dave was very good and straight to the point: "The latest pissing and moaning..."

why all the pissing and moaning? isnt this a group discussing the writings of pirzig, and right or wribg as they might be, they are an interesting adfition to the very frames that controls out thoughts. The moq should, in my humble opinion, deserve much more interest than what it get in this discussion group, and much more focus here. 
What am I trying to say? I much more enjoy the fruitfull discussions than the two front war alot of the threads end up to be. rationalising about a word or a concept is utterly meaningless if you ask me. freedom, eastern vs western philosophy, morality... they are all generalisations and mean shit. 
I like to keep things simple: I live only (only!!) now. and that now is later than when you read this text, it was a historical me, something that existed that wrot these words. the "me" that read your reply (god forbid someone replies :) ) is another me. very very similar, but not the same. 
That I chose to see this "me" as a function of inorganic,biological,social and intelectual patterns in adition to the very moment I exist in. realizing that the stability of thes patterns in itself is an illusion. Pure stability is a dead universe, so all is changing. Adding the dynamic quality as pirzig calls it, I cound just as well call it "now". 
And that I chose to believe that high quality is my awarenes of this "now" are not more or less true than anything else I might believe, but it gives me a some tools for reflecting about my own existence. 
 ot really sure what I'm trying to say here, maybe that the word of words and concepts I've seen here, is a war of generalisations that really dont add value, and is in itself meaningless.
maybe I liked your post Dave best because of your last words "get real". 

leif

Sent from my iPhone

> On 21. okt. 2013, at 18:56, Ian Glendinning <ian.glendinning at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dave, excellent,
> 
> I've seen "Zen at War" thrown back at many a discussion where the
> "eastern" not-this / not-that core of SOM-free philosophy is discussed
> (not on MD, naturally), and as you point out when it comes to
> "applying" the ideas of Zen Buddhism (or any western philosophy for
> that matter) through religious or warlike codes, it is necessary to
> "get real" before trading the life and death complexities of political
> and violent actions in war as a kind of "atrocity one-up-man-ship", to
> throw the blame back at the underlying "ism", usually with a political
> motivation not actually supported by the original idea.
> 
> I often think that is the problem with the discourse on MD, it's all
> social patterns intent on killing intellectual ideas, including
> MoQism, unlike MoQism itself.
> Ian
> 
> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 6:19 PM, David Thomas
> <combinedefforts at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> All,
>> 
>> For quite some time many here have had their knickers in a knot over
>> Marsha's interpretation of Pirsig's work vis-à-vis Buddhism. The latest
>> pissing and moaning centers around this:
>> 
>> [Pirsig ZaMM pg 82]
>> Phædrus raised his hand and asked coldly if it was believed that the atomic
>> bombs that had dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were illusory. The
>> professor smiled and said yes. That was the end of the exchange.
>> Within the traditions of Indian philosophy that answer may have been
>> correct, but for Phædrus and for anyone else who reads newspapers regularly
>> and is concerned with such things as mass destruction of human beings that
>> answer was hopelessly inadequate. He left the classroom, left India and gave
>> up.
>> 
>> [Dave]
>> If Phædrus was so disgusted with Eastern philosophy then; Why was it so
>> imperative to marry it to Western philosophy later on? And why pick the most
>> militant leaning of all Buddhism's, Zen. Was he so socially and historically
>> unaware of the Oriental history that he did not understand that "Zen and the
>> Art of Archery." in historical terms was really,  "Zen and the Art of
>> Killing People with a Bow and Arrow" If philosophy in Western societies was
>> deemed so critical to their underlying social problems; Why was Zen not
>> evaluated vis-à-vis Eastern societies and their historic social problems?
>> You know observe, like empiricism is supposed to do?
>> 
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_at_War
>> 
>> It's not like the information wasn't available. The D.T. Suzuki mentioned
>> negatively on this website published "Zen and Japanese Culture" in 1938
>> which was is based on lectures given in America and England in 1936. It was
>> republished for the mass market in English in 1959. Roughly 1/3 of the book
>> deals with Zen's adoption and use to cultivate warriors over a period of
>> 1300 years until Japan emerged in the Meiji  period (1864) as an aggressive,
>> militant, nationalist society that waged imperialist wars upon its neighbors
>> until they were finally stopped by Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
>> 
>> From Suzuki's second chapter, "Zen and the Samurai" we read:
>> 
>> "In Japan, Zen was intimately related from the beginning of its history to
>> the life of the samurai. ...Zen has sustained them in two ways, morally and
>> philosophically. Morally, because Zen is a religion which teaches us not to
>> look backward once a course is decided upon; philosophically, because it
>> treats life and death indifferently."
>> 
>> "In those days we can say that the Japanese genius went either to the
>> priesthood of to soldiery. The spiritual cooperation of the two professions
>> could not help but contribute to the creation of what is now generally known
>> as Bushido, "the way of the warrior."
>> 
>> "What finally has come to constitute Bushido,... [is] loyalty, filial piety,
>> and benevolence...and to always be ready to face death, that is, to
>> sacrifice oneself unhesitatingly when the occasion arises."
>> 
>> We see this bending of the national psyche of Japan to this Zen philosophy
>> prior to and during WWII is akin to the fanaticism of radical Islam today.
>> The individual, the self, both yours and your enemy's is nonexistent, there
>> is no shared humanity, only duty to the "Ideas" of loyalty and filial piety
>> to your society. This maybe a great strategy when you are on the attack but
>> when you are losing and your defeat is all but assured, it appears as sheer
>> madness. A complete national loss of "rationality." And that can scare the
>> fuck out of your enemy causing them to treat you and you treated them. "Tit
>> for Tat" psychology.
>> 
>> What we observe, empirically, is when "Zen [as] a religion which teaches us
>> not to look backward once a course is decided upon," it flies fully in the
>> face of pragmatism with most always disastrous consequences.
>> 
>>> [DMB]
>>> I think it would be safe to say that being murdered by atomic weapons or by
>>> genocide would count as a violation of human rights. As Pirsig points out even
>>> with respect to imposing the death penalty on a convicted murderer, the
>>> evolutionary growth and the intellectual freedom of dead people is extremely
>>> limited. Kaput.
>>> 
>>> Marsha's answer isn't just incorrect. It's also morally bankrupt - if not
>>> completely devoid of morality - and the cold-heartedness of it is downright
>>> creepy.
>> [Dave]
>> Right " it is more moral for an idea to kill a society than it is for a
>> society to kill an idea."(Lila-77) Always and forever absolutely moral. For
>> instance Pirsig claims "communism" is a high quality, morally supreme
>> intellectual pattern. Why then does Andre place three of the heroes of this
>> movement on his list below? I thought you were congenital twins.
>> 
>> Perhaps you might enlighten us on why the murder of of the men and women of
>> Pearl Harbor by enlightened Zen warriors was a good, a moral thing, while
>> the use of atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a violation of human
>> rights. Oh, oh, I know, because Americans did it. And Pirsig has made it
>> quite clear what an awful, degenerate places are those under sway of Western
>> Philosophy. Look at how it ruined his life. I'm not sure who's whining is
>> more morally repugnant, yours or his.
>> 
>> Just to refresh memories: http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2129.html
>> 
>> "On July 27, 1945, the Allied powers requested Japan in the Potsdam
>> Declaration to surrender unconditionally, or destruction would continue.
>> However, the military did not consider surrendering under such terms,
>> partially even after US military forces dropped two atomic bombs on
>> Hiroshima and Nagasaki on August 6 and 9, and the Soviet Union entered the
>> war against Japan on August 8.
>> 
>> On August 14, however, Emperor Showa finally decided to surrender
>> unconditionally."
>> 
>> I would suggest that the dropping of the bombs was analogous to a Zen
>> teacher slapping a student up side the head (and all the other similar Zen
>> stories). It is was sufficiently outrageous and shocking to bring them back
>> to reality. They became nationally "enlightened."  Oh by the way it worked.
>> They now are a democratic society that is the single beacon of social and
>> economic stability in all of Asia. And Zen's power over Japan's society has
>> waned to the point that many orders sole support is charging to maintain
>> cemeteries and presiding at funerals.
>> 
>>> [Andre]
>>> May as well discuss whether the actions of a Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol
>>> Pot, Mugabe, Idi Amin, Nixon, Bush and many others, (responsible for the
>>> killing of over 100 million people during the last century) were
>>> 'conditionally', or 'like an illusion' real or not.
>> 
>> Hey Andre, what can I tell you that's Zen. Pirsig picked it, Marsha didn't.
>> Remember, communism is a high quality intellectual pattern who's source is
>> undefined Dynamic Quality and is subject to no moral authority except
>> itself.
>> 
>> Oh, to be accurate to your interpretation of Pirsig, don't you both need to
>> include every American president from, say, Washington? They're all a bunch
>> of murderers, war makers.  Killing off all those potential morally superior
>> intellectual patterns, spontaneously blooming from undefined quality. Except
>> of course if the people killed are like Lila and Rigel who are intellectual
>> nowhere.
>> 
>> Every wonder why Buddhism has been charged with nihilism for eons?
>> 
>> I know, I know, just like Pirsig, it all been a big misunderstanding.
>> 
>> Tell that to my father's generation who fought, died, and had their lives,
>> body's, and head's fucked up in the Pacific theater.
>> 
>> Get real,
>> 
>> Dave
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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