[MD] Zen at War

[David Morey]

Nice Mr Thomas nice,  doubt the issues you raise will get much intelligent response.

David M

David Thomas <combinedefforts at earthlink.net> wrote:

>All,
>
>For quite some time many here have had their knickers in a knot over
>Marsha's interpretation of Pirsig's work vis-à-vis Buddhism. The latest
>pissing and moaning centers around this:
>
>[Pirsig ZaMM pg 82]
>Phædrus raised his hand and asked coldly if it was believed that the atomic
>bombs that had dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were illusory. The
>professor smiled and said yes. That was the end of the exchange.
>Within the traditions of Indian philosophy that answer may have been
>correct, but for Phædrus and for anyone else who reads newspapers regularly
>and is concerned with such things as mass destruction of human beings that
>answer was hopelessly inadequate. He left the classroom, left India and gave
>up.
>
>[Dave]
>If Phædrus was so disgusted with Eastern philosophy then; Why was it so
>imperative to marry it to Western philosophy later on? And why pick the most
>militant leaning of all Buddhism's, Zen. Was he so socially and historically
>unaware of the Oriental history that he did not understand that "Zen and the
>Art of Archery." in historical terms was really,  "Zen and the Art of
>Killing People with a Bow and Arrow" If philosophy in Western societies was
>deemed so critical to their underlying social problems; Why was Zen not
>evaluated vis-à-vis Eastern societies and their historic social problems?
>You know observe, like empiricism is supposed to do?
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_at_War
>
>It's not like the information wasn't available. The D.T. Suzuki mentioned
>negatively on this website published "Zen and Japanese Culture" in 1938
>which was is based on lectures given in America and England in 1936. It was
>republished for the mass market in English in 1959. Roughly 1/3 of the book
>deals with Zen's adoption and use to cultivate warriors over a period of
>1300 years until Japan emerged in the Meiji  period (1864) as an aggressive,
>militant, nationalist society that waged imperialist wars upon its neighbors
>until they were finally stopped by Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
>
>From Suzuki's second chapter, "Zen and the Samurai" we read:
>
>"In Japan, Zen was intimately related from the beginning of its history to
>the life of the samurai. ...Zen has sustained them in two ways, morally and
>philosophically. Morally, because Zen is a religion which teaches us not to
>look backward once a course is decided upon; philosophically, because it
>treats life and death indifferently."
>
>"In those days we can say that the Japanese genius went either to the
>priesthood of to soldiery. The spiritual cooperation of the two professions
>could not help but contribute to the creation of what is now generally known
>as Bushido, "the way of the warrior."
>
>"What finally has come to constitute Bushido,... [is] loyalty, filial piety,
>and benevolence...and to always be ready to face death, that is, to
>sacrifice oneself unhesitatingly when the occasion arises."
>
>We see this bending of the national psyche of Japan to this Zen philosophy
>prior to and during WWII is akin to the fanaticism of radical Islam today.
>The individual, the self, both yours and your enemy's is nonexistent, there
>is no shared humanity, only duty to the "Ideas" of loyalty and filial piety
>to your society. This maybe a great strategy when you are on the attack but
>when you are losing and your defeat is all but assured, it appears as sheer
>madness. A complete national loss of "rationality." And that can scare the
>fuck out of your enemy causing them to treat you and you treated them. "Tit
>for Tat" psychology.
>
>What we observe, empirically, is when "Zen [as] a religion which teaches us
>not to look backward once a course is decided upon," it flies fully in the
>face of pragmatism with most always disastrous consequences.
>
>>[DMB]
>> I think it would be safe to say that being murdered by atomic weapons or by
>> genocide would count as a violation of human rights. As Pirsig points out even
>> with respect to imposing the death penalty on a convicted murderer, the
>> evolutionary growth and the intellectual freedom of dead people is extremely
>> limited. Kaput.
>> 
>> Marsha's answer isn't just incorrect. It's also morally bankrupt - if not
>> completely devoid of morality - and the cold-heartedness of it is downright
>> creepy. 
>[Dave]
>Right " it is more moral for an idea to kill a society than it is for a
>society to kill an idea."(Lila-77) Always and forever absolutely moral. For
>instance Pirsig claims "communism" is a high quality, morally supreme
>intellectual pattern. Why then does Andre place three of the heroes of this
>movement on his list below? I thought you were congenital twins.
>
>Perhaps you might enlighten us on why the murder of of the men and women of
>Pearl Harbor by enlightened Zen warriors was a good, a moral thing, while
>the use of atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a violation of human
>rights. Oh, oh, I know, because Americans did it. And Pirsig has made it
>quite clear what an awful, degenerate places are those under sway of Western
>Philosophy. Look at how it ruined his life. I'm not sure who's whining is
>more morally repugnant, yours or his.
>
>Just to refresh memories: http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2129.html
>
>"On July 27, 1945, the Allied powers requested Japan in the Potsdam
>Declaration to surrender unconditionally, or destruction would continue.
>However, the military did not consider surrendering under such terms,
>partially even after US military forces dropped two atomic bombs on
>Hiroshima and Nagasaki on August 6 and 9, and the Soviet Union entered the
>war against Japan on August 8.
>
>On August 14, however, Emperor Showa finally decided to surrender
>unconditionally."
>
>I would suggest that the dropping of the bombs was analogous to a Zen
>teacher slapping a student up side the head (and all the other similar Zen
>stories). It is was sufficiently outrageous and shocking to bring them back
>to reality. They became nationally "enlightened."  Oh by the way it worked.
>They now are a democratic society that is the single beacon of social and
>economic stability in all of Asia. And Zen's power over Japan's society has
>waned to the point that many orders sole support is charging to maintain
>cemeteries and presiding at funerals.
>
>>[Andre]
>>May as well discuss whether the actions of a Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol
>>Pot, Mugabe, Idi Amin, Nixon, Bush and many others, (responsible for the
>>killing of over 100 million people during the last century) were
>>'conditionally', or 'like an illusion' real or not.
>
>Hey Andre, what can I tell you that's Zen. Pirsig picked it, Marsha didn't.
>Remember, communism is a high quality intellectual pattern who's source is
>undefined Dynamic Quality and is subject to no moral authority except
>itself. 
>
>Oh, to be accurate to your interpretation of Pirsig, don't you both need to
>include every American president from, say, Washington? They're all a bunch
>of murderers, war makers.  Killing off all those potential morally superior
>intellectual patterns, spontaneously blooming from undefined quality. Except
>of course if the people killed are like Lila and Rigel who are intellectual
>nowhere.
>
>Every wonder why Buddhism has been charged with nihilism for eons?
>
>I know, I know, just like Pirsig, it all been a big misunderstanding.
>
>Tell that to my father's generation who fought, died, and had their lives,
>body's, and head's fucked up in the Pacific theater.
>
>Get real,
>
>Dave
>
>
>
>
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