[MD] Anti-intellectualism revisited

[Ron Kulp]

> On Jun 10, 2014, at 7:53 PM, John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Ron,
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 4:18 PM, Ron Kulp <xacto at rocketmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> John,
>> Let's look again at the philosophical
>> Meat and potatoes offered up, sans
>> "Pirsig sez" that seemed to be over looked in your reply:
> 
> 
> Jc:  Ok.
> 
> RK:
> 
> 
>> 
>>>>>>> "Art is born when out of the many bits if information
>>>>> derived
>>>>>>> from experience there emerges a grasp of those similarities in view
>> of
>>>>>>> which they are unified whole."
>>>>>>> Aristotle metaphysics book alpha.
> 
> Jc:
> 
> Well, I hate to argue with Ari, but it's been done before... so here goes.
> First off, the way I construe what he's saying, is that substance
> interacting with knowledge, births art.  Is that right?  Bit's of
> information, begs the questions of cultural, conceptual frameworks and it
> doesn't seem to match the actual birth of art in experience.  Einstein
> didn't come up with his elegant statement, or Leonardo with Mona Lisa's
> smile, through many bits of information derived from experience.  There
> were millions such, deriving the same bits of information, from similar
> experience.  Art is born of DQ, and nothing else that I can think of.

Ron:
Neither if these artists solved their problems in a vacuum. Einstein applied the mathematics used to model water and applied it to space,
He didn't create anything but a useful connection. And who knows about Da Vinci's Mona Lisa. I think that's more about interpretation. But your making a lot of assumptions too about substance and knowledge.
He was after meaning, not truth.
Art is born of man. To be a human being is to be an intellectual being.
Art is an intellectual endeavor, it holds meaning. solves problems.
Again your only arguement is one
Of elitism. It seems to just piss you off that everyone is an artist, just some are better than others.

Aristotle :
>>>>  "Art is born when out of the many bits if information
>> derived
>>>> from experience there emerges a grasp of those similarities in view of
>>>> which they are unified whole."
>>>> Aristotle metaphysics book alpha.
>>>> 
>>>> "Knowing in the truest sense concerns
>>>> What is best in the truest sense. So intellect finds it's fulfillment in
>>>> being aware of the intelligible. "
>>>> 
>>>> "It is this better state that the divine has being and life, the self
>>>> sufficient activity of the divine is life at its eternal best."
>>>> - book Lambda
>>>> 
>>>> To the Greeks knowing what is best
>>>> Is the divine aspect of being.
> 
> Ron quoting Ari:
> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> "Knowing in the truest sense concerns
>>>>>>> What is best in the truest sense.
> 
> Jc:  Absolutely true!
> 
> R-A:
> 
> So intellect finds it's fulfillment in
>>>>>>> being aware of the intelligible. "
> 
> 
> Jc:  Full awareness of the intelligible is too big a task, for modern man.

Ron:
Another assumption, what is intelligible is unique to one experience. What is intelligible to 
You.

Jc :
> There's become too much to conceptualize, since Ari's time.
> So intellect discriminates.  It categorizes and wields that analytic
> knife.  Intellect isn't content with mere awareness.  Intellect seeks
> understanding.  That's where intellect finds its peace of mind.
> 
Ron:
That's Pirsigs gripe too

> R-A:
> 
>>>>>> "It is this better state that the divine has being and life, the self
>>>>>>> sufficient activity of the divine is life at its eternal best."
>>>>>>> - book Lambda
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> To the Greeks knowing what is best
>>>>>>> Is the divine aspect of being.
>> 
>> Intellect is the creative act of understanding experience.

> Jc:  Intellect is dualistic in nature, then?  There is a logical/analytic
> aspect, and a creative, imaginary aspect?
> 
Ron:
How did you get that from this passage?


> R-A:
> 
> 
>> It is a divine act, it is the knowledge of the Good. Therefore an extension
>> Of the Good. That's why the Greeks put it at the top, intellect was an
>> extension of god the creative source,
>> Intellect, the creative act of being.
>> 
>> Let's address this because it has a lot to do with RMPs project.
>> 
>> -Ron

Jc:
> I was talking to Dan about Jacob Needleman - here's an excerpt from a book
> on his website
> <http://jacobneedleman.squarespace.com/books/necessary-wisdom.html>:
> 
> NEEDLEMAN: The basic idea of Stoicism is that we are essentially one with
> the great self, or Logos of the universe. That’s our true nature. We
> exercise that true nature by the capacity of the mind to relate consciously
> to its experiences — to accept, understand, or receive them without the
> preferences of liking or disliking those experiences, or responding with
> fear or craving.

Ron:
This explanation neglects the Good.
It does not explain why some things
Are better than others . For it is true.
Some things ARE better than others no?

Jc:
> Nor does a true stoic try to reinterpret experiences, make
> them more or less dramatic, or good or bad. The stoic receives all
> experiences with an inner quiet.
> 
Ron:
I think that's rubbish. All living beings know what good is.
I think they're jerking themselves off.

Jc:
> It reminded me of my friend Steve, since he's the co-owner of the stoics
> mailing list.  I've asked him a bunch of times, to rejoin MD but he's too
> busy over there.  So I joined it today.  We'll see what it's like.  If they
> let me in.  heh.
> 
> 
> I think there is an aspect of intellect, that is very close to DQ.
> Intellect is indefinable and yeah, I know everything is, but intellect is
> indefinable in a special way - since it's the means of defining as well.
> So defining intellect, is most of all,  more a creative art than a
> rigorously logical process.
> 
> That's all I'm sayin'.

Ron;
That's all Pirsig is saying.
> 
> John C.
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