[MD] Rhetoric

Tuukka Virtaperko mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net
Tue Dec 6 18:42:11 PST 2016


Adrie,


On 04-Dec-16 17:03, Adrie Kintziger wrote:
> @Tuuk.
>
> Your statement above is not entirely correct.And i do not think it would be
> honest to say that you cannot post mail's here without someone else
> trys to copulate with it either.
> I took a big snip back from the beginning of the thread.
> "quote", Tuukka.
>
>
> If you're calling me unnatural, I agree. I trek and am familiar with
> nature, I feel it. But there are degrees of separation from nature.
> Consider the guy who designs the electronics inside your cell phone. He's
> pretty far detached from nature. But then again, consider an African with a
> cell phone. He possibly owns very few electronic devices. But many Africans
> do have a cell phone. I think the African with the cell phone is less
> detached from nature than the guys (and girls) who designed the electronics
> and coded the software inside.
>
> So, these nerds (Hell if Adrie doesn't accuse me of being a nerd. I could
> call him a flibbertigibbet but that would go nowhere.) change nature. They
> could some day create nature on different planet. I know, that doesn't
> interest anyone here, clearly. But they could still do it.
>
> The point is, technology can help us express our nature. And if technology
> gets good enough we will have more time to cultivate the delightful aspects
> of what does it mean to be a biological organism. Which is what you want.
> But you don't want to be part of the process if that requires you to change
> your thinking. You only want the result. And do you know why that makes me
> feel bad?
>
> It makes me feel bad because I have to do this because of who I am. I don't
> have enough social skills. If I try to do that "emotional intelligence"
> thing people do at my posts, which apparently means throwing poop at them
> like monkeys or staring at them like ducks, I end up doing something else
> than maximizing my potential.
>
> But the paradox in me maximizing my potential is in me doing things that
> don't make me happy. That don't mean living a full life. So, I'm always
> balancing between "you're going to break yourself that way" and "now you're
> just trying to drown the pain you feel all the time".
>
> The break myself part means that I don't eat, I don't have a social life, I
> get so serious and competitive I start feeling intimidated by people with
> good social skills... because I'm so serious I don't feel like I'm going to
> enlighten people like some guy in a robe. I feel like I'm going to KILL the
> ignorance in them like some guy driving a tank. So, obviously my natural
> instinct becomes to suspect that the emotionally intelligent people share
> this mindset even though they're just getting good vibes from helping
> people. I feel like they're punishing me for who I am because I can't
> behave up to their standards.
>
> But sometimes I get so sick of that. I'm really not inhumane enough.
> Because that serious and competitive attitude does make me sick. So then I
> try to feel. Live a life of feelings. And it's difficult because usually I
> really don't care. If I love someone, then I care. Otherwise I really don't
> care. I'm not sure what "universal love" means or whether it's attainable
> for me. Sometimes temporarily it may be.
>
> And you think I live this way because I think it's a good way to live a
> life. No, I don't think anybody should live like this unless they're good
> at what they do. If you do this but you're never going to be good at it,
> well, unless somebody pays you to do it anyway, or unless you do it just
> for fun, stop doing it. That's my advice to anyone.
>
> You don't need to teach me I'm hurting myself by living this kind of a
> life. I know it already. I'm not imposing a lifestyle on you! I'm only
> imposing the results of my pain-in-the-ass research on you. I could do
> something else. A lot of people would want me to draw cartoons. But nobody
> has ever told me a coherent acount of why I couldn't be extremely good at
> this. I think I'm better at this than anyone I know. Yup, another proof
> that I have no social skills. A suave person might have thought that of
> himself but wouldn't have said it.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Comment.
> I did not call you a nerd, nor doi think you are a nerd.What you wrote
> above is very consistent,taken from real life itself,and seems very honest
> and open.
> It is not a bad thing to analyse one self.Knowing yourself is essential to
> find wisdom.
> I did re-read the entire mail here, and most of it really should not be
> criticised
> at all.The posting was not directed at me,but it is quit clear that nobody
> here
> reacted on it.
> Nobody tought it was nessecary to copulate with it, or trow poop at it
> right?
>
> When i read it, to be honest,and to adress your points of view expressed
> here,
> i see no need to ridicule you, or to call in the cheerleaders
> either,.......it ain't very sad, your story,nor does it appears to be
> filosophical.Most of the problems you talk about here are simply life's
> difficulties,nothing else.
> They are not attached to one individual solely.
> The social skills you keep reffering to?, some whitparts in these posting
> snaps?, you think too much of it ,kiddo,life itself nor the social skills
> you project here, or wich are projected as absent in the path you'r on
> right now, will make the lights burn, or produce a book.
> Life itself is not all that "Pompous", or as we say in Belgium and
> Holland,life
> itself is not all that " hoogdravend",as we wished it to be.Forget the
> playing
> part,you'r way passed puberty,forget mom and dad,as you cannot rely on them
> when you grow up.Forget the the winig part," i do not eat", or" i damage
> myself", .............leave it behind or it will consume you.
> You need to be a caracter on your own. Work for yourself.Complaining
> is useless.It does not work.
>
> But is all the above that you wrote decent?, yes off course it is,so why
> would i call you a nerd?.But i can also see that you are under a lot of
> pressure to start talking about filosophy or Pirsig,or related
> material,because that's the
> purpose of this list right?,.....What is holding you back? i'm not.Nobody is
> exept yourself.

Tuk:

Well, uhh, I'm really mostly just interested of the dialectical part of 
philosophy. If it's philosophy, dialectics, please. But if it's life... 
that's a different story. It's just that you're interacting with my work 
persona here. When Bo had to go to the hospital I was worried. And I 
expressed it. But after he came back we just kept debating.

The Diamond Sutra pretty much captures the aspect of philosophy that 
isn't dialectical and that I like. And it captures the point of MOQ, the 
undefinability of (Dynamic) Quality. And I didn't even get it by reading 
the MOQ. I got it when someone else read the Diamond Sutra to me. But 
after I "got" it I regarded it as obvious and kept on doing dialectics 
because of a million good reasons.

It's like people thought once you realize dialectics is just dialectics 
you're supposed to stop doing it. I don't think so.

Tuk

>
> I did doubt it for some time weather or not i would comment on the next
> snip, but i will.
>
> snip
>
> (Yeah, I've occasionally been one of the cool guys, too. Still am. But I
> don't know much about what to do with that. It looks like I probably should
> be one of the guys who makes things for people who actually need them
> because they have a life. If you were one of those laborers, would you
> never feel envious? Maybe, if you wouldn't know how good the living feel.
> But they can feel really good. And once you know that, you realize you're
> on a space mission because even though you can understand what these
> emotionally intelligent people have accomplished in life, you realize
> that's not what your life is gonna be. And you search and search for a way
> to change that, but you can't find any. And if you just keep searching too
> long you start feeling like: "Now I'm not going to even achieve that nerdy
> shit I could've made work had I just given up about life soon enough!")
>
> comment.
>
> The above explanation is the story of the kings "fool" or "nar" or in
>   english
> "jester"!!.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jester
>
> Nobody gets away with a life like that anymore.You will find some of them
> still today in the big city's like Rome, or Amsterdam, trying to enchant
> some tourists, or show them some magic with cardgames,or play the gitar
> before the vatican(playing 'titanic')(pun intended), i mean,Jester's do not
> get a pension,
> they have no future or purpose..........
> I did not use this explanation to make a fool of you, Tuukka,but either you
> will play along with life's demands, or it will leave you behind.
>
> Given all the above, and in the light of the controverse about Pirsig's
> wherabouts and adress,and you last posting consideret i can say
> that it is a certainty that tim rappl is a real Jester,a drugged and doped
> one.
> do not follow his lead, Tuuka,be a personality of your own.
>
> Adrie
>
>
>
>
>
> 2016-12-04 12:25 GMT+01:00 <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>
>> David,
>>
>> nice. Now you're pretending it was your idea that I leave him alone.
>> Nothing else to do than try to get inside someone else's skin? I can't even
>> post a message on MD without someone trying to copulate with it... that
>> must be why Pirsig doesn't do so either.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tuk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Quoting david <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>:
>>
>> I don't know what Robert Pirsig has been doing lately but normally  he
>>> drinks coffee at his desk each morning while reading the news and  the
>>> posts on this forum, among other things. If that's still true,  then he
>>> knows your email address and he knows you'd like to be in  contact. But so
>>> would many, many, many other people. And nobody is  capable of satisfying
>>> that kind of demand. Nobody. And he's retired,  likes to meditate, and
>>> otherwise keep to himself. Plus he's in his  80s. Please, don't take it
>>> personally if I suggest that you let it  go and leave him alone. And I take
>>> my own advice, by the way. I  could bother him but I don't. Out of respect
>>> for his peace of mind  and expressed wishes. He's done talking about the
>>> MOQ with fans.  That's all there is to it. True story. "I'm retired," he
>>> said, "you  guys take it from here."
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on behalf  of
>>> mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 2:15 PM
>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
>>>
>>> I haven't noticed that Tim would've posted Pirsig's street address on
>>> LS. Even if he did, I'd feel uncomfortable writing Pirsig had I
>>> obtained his address in such a way.
>>>
>>> At this point Pirsig, if in sufficient health, is perfectly capable of
>>> figuring out who I am and what's my business. Meeting him would be an
>>> honor and I wouldn't require a particular kind of a meeting. If he
>>> anyway does not wish to contact me, why should I think any more of it?
>>> A man of his age needn't think of work, that's for sure. There's more
>>> to life, such as cooking sausages in the fireplace. That's what I'm
>>> going to do next, anyway.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Tuk
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>
>


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