[MD] Rhetoric

Wed Dec 7 12:58:28 PST 2016

does this cover the previous 4 mails for congruence of the content?
comparable?
Plato could be wrong,of course.

2016-12-07 21:56 GMT+01:00 Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>:

> Plato,- Republic
>
> snip out of context.
>
> He cannot.
> And from being a keeper of the law he is converted into a breaker of it?
>
> Unquestionably.
> Now all this is very natural in students of philosophy such as I have described,
> and also, as I was just now saying, most excusable.
>
> Yes, he said; and, I may add, pitiable.
> Therefore, that your feelings may not be moved to pity about our citizens who
> are now thirty years of age, every care must be taken in introducing them
> to dialectic.
>
> Certainly.
> There is a danger lest they should taste the dear delight too early; for
> youngsters, as you may have observed, when they first get the taste in
> their mouths, argue for amusement, and are always contradicting and refuting
> others in imitation of those who refute them; like puppy-dogs, they
> rejoice in pulling and tearing at all who come near them.
>
> Yes, he said, there is nothing which they like better.
> And when they have made many conquests and received defeats at the hands
> of many, they violently and speedily get into a way of not believinganything
> which they believed before, and hence, not only they, but philosophy and
> all that relates to it is apt to have a bad name with the rest of the
> world.
>
> Too true, he said.
> But when a man begins to get older, he will no longer be guilty of such
> insanity; he will imitate the dialectician who is seeking for truth, and
> not the eristic, who is contradicting for the sake of amusement; and the
> greater moderation of his character will increase instead of diminishing the
> honour of the pursuit.
>
>
> 2016-12-07 5:21 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>
>> I don't like gambling. That feels like work. If you gamble you have to do
>> calculations or be knowledgeable about horses, or someone else is gonna
>> take your money. I already gambled my youth on philosophy and isn't time
>> money? When I came here to debate some age-old issue with you I didn't
>> expect to make progress. It's just that Dan offered the damn thing on a
>> silver plate. Of course I make logic out of it, how can someone not do that
>> after they've received free private education? Do you know how free private
>> education feels like? It makes you feel special. It makes you feel like
>> "The rest of the people don't even know this but if there's something
>> logical I'm gonna take a shot at it." And then there it is, Pirsig made a
>> mistake. Boom! Yeah, I get my kicks out of that. Because that stuff has
>> been around for years and I'm the first to notice.
>>
>> So I have this paradoxical character of liking to take risks and being
>> extremely patient. But it doesn't mean I wouldn't like the fast stuff. I
>> like that, too. It's just that I also like the slow stuff.
>>
>> Tuk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07-Dec-16 5:01, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>
>>> Adrie,
>>>
>>> when I step out of dialectics I tend to immediately proceed to theology,
>>> art, adventures, experimental culture or something like that. I used to
>>> like continental philosophy more but it started feeling like, if we're just
>>> wading in all this rhetoric we will not build something that lasts but we
>>> will merely take a snapshot of the atmosphere we're living in. I just
>>> wanted to make something really solid I can trust not to go away for some
>>> reason that escapes my comprehension.
>>>
>>> If it's made of logic and it's good, it can last millennia. But yeah,
>>> not all things need to last *that* long.
>>>
>>> I've been studying socionics lately. It's just so much easier to
>>> approach people in terms of logical structure. It makes me keep my focus.
>>> Sometimes when I'm around people I feel bad because I don't know what to
>>> expect. Socionics allows me to devise vague expectations that are so vague
>>> they don't mean much, but just enough to make the part of me that wants to
>>> control calm down so that some other functions of my personality can become
>>> active.
>>>
>>> I used to be popular in high school. But I was so in my own world I
>>> didn't even notice. Sometimes I'd like to feel younger again. But, no
>>> offense, that's probably not how I'm going to feel here with you guys.
>>> Family? Heart condition?
>>>
>>> You know, I sometimes do this kind of random stuff such as meet a total
>>> stranger and go keep company to her while she's shoplifting. And when we're
>>> near the exit she becomes convinced she's not going to get caught - that
>>> nobody noticed - and she just closes her eyes and smiles. She gets off on
>>> that. And I like to watch. Do people with a family and a heart condition do
>>> that?
>>>
>>> If it's not analytical philosophy I want it to be exciting. And I don't
>>> think continental philosophy is exciting.
>>>
>>> Tuk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 07-Dec-16 4:42, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>
>>>> Adrie,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 04-Dec-16 17:03, Adrie Kintziger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> @Tuuk.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your statement above is not entirely correct.And i do not think it
>>>>> would be
>>>>> honest to say that you cannot post mail's here without someone else
>>>>> trys to copulate with it either.
>>>>> I took a big snip back from the beginning of the thread.
>>>>> "quote", Tuukka.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you're calling me unnatural, I agree. I trek and am familiar with
>>>>> nature, I feel it. But there are degrees of separation from nature.
>>>>> Consider the guy who designs the electronics inside your cell phone.
>>>>> He's
>>>>> pretty far detached from nature. But then again, consider an African
>>>>> with a
>>>>> cell phone. He possibly owns very few electronic devices. But many
>>>>> Africans
>>>>> do have a cell phone. I think the African with the cell phone is less
>>>>> detached from nature than the guys (and girls) who designed the
>>>>> electronics
>>>>> and coded the software inside.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, these nerds (Hell if Adrie doesn't accuse me of being a nerd. I
>>>>> could
>>>>> call him a flibbertigibbet but that would go nowhere.) change nature.
>>>>> They
>>>>> could some day create nature on different planet. I know, that doesn't
>>>>> interest anyone here, clearly. But they could still do it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point is, technology can help us express our nature. And if
>>>>> technology
>>>>> gets good enough we will have more time to cultivate the delightful
>>>>> aspects
>>>>> of what does it mean to be a biological organism. Which is what you
>>>>> want.
>>>>> But you don't want to be part of the process if that requires you to
>>>>> change
>>>>> your thinking. You only want the result. And do you know why that
>>>>> makes me
>>>>> feel bad?
>>>>>
>>>>> It makes me feel bad because I have to do this because of who I am. I
>>>>> don't
>>>>> have enough social skills. If I try to do that "emotional intelligence"
>>>>> thing people do at my posts, which apparently means throwing poop at
>>>>> them
>>>>> like monkeys or staring at them like ducks, I end up doing something
>>>>> else
>>>>> than maximizing my potential.
>>>>>
>>>>> But the paradox in me maximizing my potential is in me doing things
>>>>> that
>>>>> don't make me happy. That don't mean living a full life. So, I'm always
>>>>> balancing between "you're going to break yourself that way" and "now
>>>>> you're
>>>>> just trying to drown the pain you feel all the time".
>>>>>
>>>>> The break myself part means that I don't eat, I don't have a social
>>>>> life, I
>>>>> get so serious and competitive I start feeling intimidated by people
>>>>> with
>>>>> good social skills... because I'm so serious I don't feel like I'm
>>>>> going to
>>>>> enlighten people like some guy in a robe. I feel like I'm going to
>>>>> KILL the
>>>>> ignorance in them like some guy driving a tank. So, obviously my
>>>>> natural
>>>>> instinct becomes to suspect that the emotionally intelligent people
>>>>> share
>>>>> this mindset even though they're just getting good vibes from helping
>>>>> people. I feel like they're punishing me for who I am because I can't
>>>>> behave up to their standards.
>>>>>
>>>>> But sometimes I get so sick of that. I'm really not inhumane enough.
>>>>> Because that serious and competitive attitude does make me sick. So
>>>>> then I
>>>>> try to feel. Live a life of feelings. And it's difficult because
>>>>> usually I
>>>>> really don't care. If I love someone, then I care. Otherwise I really
>>>>> don't
>>>>> care. I'm not sure what "universal love" means or whether it's
>>>>> attainable
>>>>> for me. Sometimes temporarily it may be.
>>>>>
>>>>> And you think I live this way because I think it's a good way to live a
>>>>> life. No, I don't think anybody should live like this unless they're
>>>>> good
>>>>> at what they do. If you do this but you're never going to be good at
>>>>> it,
>>>>> well, unless somebody pays you to do it anyway, or unless you do it
>>>>> just
>>>>> for fun, stop doing it. That's my advice to anyone.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't need to teach me I'm hurting myself by living this kind of a
>>>>> life. I know it already. I'm not imposing a lifestyle on you! I'm only
>>>>> imposing the results of my pain-in-the-ass research on you. I could do
>>>>> something else. A lot of people would want me to draw cartoons. But
>>>>> nobody
>>>>> has ever told me a coherent acount of why I couldn't be extremely good
>>>>> at
>>>>> this. I think I'm better at this than anyone I know. Yup, another proof
>>>>> that I have no social skills. A suave person might have thought that of
>>>>> himself but wouldn't have said it.
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Comment.
>>>>> I did not call you a nerd, nor doi think you are a nerd.What you wrote
>>>>> above is very consistent,taken from real life itself,and seems very
>>>>> honest
>>>>> and open.
>>>>> It is not a bad thing to analyse one self.Knowing yourself is
>>>>> essential to
>>>>> find wisdom.
>>>>> I did re-read the entire mail here, and most of it really should not be
>>>>> criticised
>>>>> at all.The posting was not directed at me,but it is quit clear that
>>>>> nobody
>>>>> here
>>>>> reacted on it.
>>>>> Nobody tought it was nessecary to copulate with it, or trow poop at it
>>>>> right?
>>>>>
>>>>> When i read it, to be honest,and to adress your points of view
>>>>> expressed
>>>>> here,
>>>>> i see no need to ridicule you, or to call in the cheerleaders
>>>>> either,.......it ain't very sad, your story,nor does it appears to be
>>>>> filosophical.Most of the problems you talk about here are simply life's
>>>>> difficulties,nothing else.
>>>>> They are not attached to one individual solely.
>>>>> The social skills you keep reffering to?, some whitparts in these
>>>>> posting
>>>>> snaps?, you think too much of it ,kiddo,life itself nor the social
>>>>> skills
>>>>> you project here, or wich are projected as absent in the path you'r on
>>>>> right now, will make the lights burn, or produce a book.
>>>>> Life itself is not all that "Pompous", or as we say in Belgium and
>>>>> Holland,life
>>>>> itself is not all that " hoogdravend",as we wished it to be.Forget the
>>>>> playing
>>>>> part,you'r way passed puberty,forget mom and dad,as you cannot rely on
>>>>> them
>>>>> when you grow up.Forget the the winig part," i do not eat", or" i
>>>>> damage
>>>>> myself", .............leave it behind or it will consume you.
>>>>> You need to be a caracter on your own. Work for yourself.Complaining
>>>>> is useless.It does not work.
>>>>>
>>>>> But is all the above that you wrote decent?, yes off course it is,so
>>>>> why
>>>>> would i call you a nerd?.But i can also see that you are under a lot of
>>>>> pressure to start talking about filosophy or Pirsig,or related
>>>>> material,because that's the
>>>>> purpose of this list right?,.....What is holding you back? i'm
>>>>> not.Nobody is
>>>>> exept yourself.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tuk:
>>>>
>>>> Well, uhh, I'm really mostly just interested of the dialectical part of
>>>> philosophy. If it's philosophy, dialectics, please. But if it's life...
>>>> that's a different story. It's just that you're interacting with my work
>>>> persona here. When Bo had to go to the hospital I was worried. And I
>>>> expressed it. But after he came back we just kept debating.
>>>>
>>>> The Diamond Sutra pretty much captures the aspect of philosophy that
>>>> isn't dialectical and that I like. And it captures the point of MOQ, the
>>>> undefinability of (Dynamic) Quality. And I didn't even get it by reading
>>>> the MOQ. I got it when someone else read the Diamond Sutra to me. But after
>>>> I "got" it I regarded it as obvious and kept on doing dialectics because of
>>>> a million good reasons.
>>>>
>>>> It's like people thought once you realize dialectics is just dialectics
>>>> you're supposed to stop doing it. I don't think so.
>>>>
>>>> Tuk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I did doubt it for some time weather or not i would comment on the next
>>>>> snip, but i will.
>>>>>
>>>>> snip
>>>>>
>>>>> (Yeah, I've occasionally been one of the cool guys, too. Still am. But
>>>>> I
>>>>> don't know much about what to do with that. It looks like I probably
>>>>> should
>>>>> be one of the guys who makes things for people who actually need them
>>>>> because they have a life. If you were one of those laborers, would you
>>>>> never feel envious? Maybe, if you wouldn't know how good the living
>>>>> feel.
>>>>> But they can feel really good. And once you know that, you realize
>>>>> you're
>>>>> on a space mission because even though you can understand what these
>>>>> emotionally intelligent people have accomplished in life, you realize
>>>>> that's not what your life is gonna be. And you search and search for a
>>>>> way
>>>>> to change that, but you can't find any. And if you just keep searching
>>>>> too
>>>>> long you start feeling like: "Now I'm not going to even achieve that
>>>>> nerdy
>>>>> shit I could've made work had I just given up about life soon enough!")
>>>>>
>>>>> comment.
>>>>>
>>>>> The above explanation is the story of the kings "fool" or "nar" or in
>>>>>   english
>>>>> "jester"!!.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jester
>>>>>
>>>>> Nobody gets away with a life like that anymore.You will find some of
>>>>> them
>>>>> still today in the big city's like Rome, or Amsterdam, trying to
>>>>> enchant
>>>>> some tourists, or show them some magic with cardgames,or play the gitar
>>>>> before the vatican(playing 'titanic')(pun intended), i mean,Jester's
>>>>> do not
>>>>> get a pension,
>>>>> they have no future or purpose..........
>>>>> I did not use this explanation to make a fool of you, Tuukka,but
>>>>> either you
>>>>> will play along with life's demands, or it will leave you behind.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given all the above, and in the light of the controverse about Pirsig's
>>>>> wherabouts and adress,and you last posting consideret i can say
>>>>> that it is a certainty that tim rappl is a real Jester,a drugged and
>>>>> doped
>>>>> one.
>>>>> do not follow his lead, Tuuka,be a personality of your own.
>>>>>
>>>>> Adrie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2016-12-04 12:25 GMT+01:00 <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>>>
>>>>> David,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> nice. Now you're pretending it was your idea that I leave him alone.
>>>>>> Nothing else to do than try to get inside someone else's skin? I
>>>>>> can't even
>>>>>> post a message on MD without someone trying to copulate with it...
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> must be why Pirsig doesn't do so either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quoting david <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know what Robert Pirsig has been doing lately but normally  he
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> drinks coffee at his desk each morning while reading the news and
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> posts on this forum, among other things. If that's still true,  then
>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>> knows your email address and he knows you'd like to be in contact.
>>>>>>> But so
>>>>>>> would many, many, many other people. And nobody is capable of
>>>>>>> satisfying
>>>>>>> that kind of demand. Nobody. And he's retired,  likes to meditate,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> otherwise keep to himself. Plus he's in his  80s. Please, don't take
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> personally if I suggest that you let it  go and leave him alone. And
>>>>>>> I take
>>>>>>> my own advice, by the way. I  could bother him but I don't. Out of
>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>> for his peace of mind  and expressed wishes. He's done talking about
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> MOQ with fans.  That's all there is to it. True story. "I'm
>>>>>>> retired," he
>>>>>>> said, "you  guys take it from here."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on behalf
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 2:15 PM
>>>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I haven't noticed that Tim would've posted Pirsig's street address on
>>>>>>> LS. Even if he did, I'd feel uncomfortable writing Pirsig had I
>>>>>>> obtained his address in such a way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At this point Pirsig, if in sufficient health, is perfectly capable
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> figuring out who I am and what's my business. Meeting him would be an
>>>>>>> honor and I wouldn't require a particular kind of a meeting. If he
>>>>>>> anyway does not wish to contact me, why should I think any more of
>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>> A man of his age needn't think of work, that's for sure. There's more
>>>>>>> to life, such as cooking sausages in the fireplace. That's what I'm
>>>>>>> going to do next, anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>>>>>>> moq.org
>>>>>>> The MOQ_Discuss mailing list has been moved to a new hosting
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>>>>>>> a new mailing list server. The old system was becoming more
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>>>>>>> the day and the ...
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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