[MD] John Carl: Ignoramous or fraud?

Sun Nov 6 03:26:17 PST 2016

Yes, pretty shells,.......
driftwood, shifting sands,dunes and pebble's.Should we take them as
idealism, realism,pluralism or any other filosophy, and should we take them
as writers , novellists,and philosophers.;our rude and brutal feet walking
on them,stampeding them........
 should we observe the pebble's interactions with the tidal forces, the
fight with the winds,the grinding sand?...
or should we be their prosecutors,writing orders to formulate subpoena's?
are we to kick the pebble's with the rudeness of our ingnorant feet,or do we
listen to the sound of the water when it touches the stones, the sand, the
wood?, are we here to learn?

One of Hemingway's most important senteces come to mind....
"try to write the truest sentence you know.try to write one true sentence"

Adrie

2016-11-06 7:45 GMT+01:00 Dan Glover <daneglover at gmail.com>:

> Adrie, all,
>
> I always had the impression that Robert Pirsig is a beachcomber
> extraordinaire. I think Phaedrus was portrayed as a poor student. He
> read voraciously but also skimmed a great deal searching for relevant
> information and discarding that which didn't fit. I would also posit
> that what makes Pirsig's work accessible for many is the same thing
> that turns academia away from his writings: encasing his philosophy in
> the form of novels. I've read other philosophers and what a slog. John
> was good enough to send me a copy of Randy Auxier's book Time, Will,
> and Purpose: Living Ideas from the Philosophy of Josiah Royce and yes
> it was a bit of a snore. I am sure that sort of academic writing
> appeals to a certain reader but for me it is exceedingly difficult to
> stay interested. That isn't to say I don't appreciate the work that
> went into Randy's work. I do. I just don't see how it is accessible to
> a lot of readers in the way Pirsig is. I guess you could liken Randy's
> work to deep sea diving. Whitehead too. To me, it is much more
> enlightening to simply walk down a beach picking up pretty shells.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Dan
>
> http://www.danglover.com
>
> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 11:27 AM, Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > David , All;
> >
> > This is also something that keeps bugging me , David.
> > Adrie ,quoting Dmb
> >  " As if Pirsig had kept his Whitehead reading a big secret and then
> passed
> > off Whitehead's thinking as his own thinking. But if Pirsig was trying to
> > hide a secret connection to Whitehead, why would he quote the man in both
> > of his books"?..
> > ------------------------------------------------
> > He (Pirsig) indeed was quoting Whitehead on a regular base.Obvious.
> > Lila was targeting an academic level of understanding.The level that
> > understands that there were previous philosphers.
> > The level were the use of Plato, Socrates,Kant, Russel is understood
> > to be inherently present as a priori-basic building brick of reality.
> > It was mandatory for Pirsig to beachcomb all the previous written
> material,
> > as there is no reason what so ever to re-invent the universe on a daily
> > base.
> > Did he use Whitehead to put some cherry's on the metaphisical pie?..
> > If he did, they are more than cherry's....and they are laden with new
> > insights.
> > Did Metaphisical time keep evolving since Whitehead grew old?I really
> > do believe so,as did Pirsig and the rest of the establishment.
> >
> > Sometimes its obvious why the way Whitehead is quoted is seen as
> offensive
> > towards theistic people,in the quote you offered yesterday from Lila
> > were Pirsig (chapter 9)?i believe,quotes Whitehead and ditches the
> sjamanism
> > that coasted along in the same alinea, or should i write "was always
> > inherently present" in the presentations of Whitehead.
> >
> > It would be interesting i suppose to investgate why there was a 'god'
> and a
> > Whitehead 'god'(found on stanford ), and not all theists were very happy
> > with
> > this fact.
> >
> > It would be interesting to reexamine Dr Mc Watts considerations about
> > Whitehead.
> >
> > It should be not so difficult to find this asserted stolen concruence as
> > quite
> > normal in Philosophical enviroments and is regardes as normal.
> > John cannot be the first to mine the ore.Others came before him.
> >
> > But to conclude for now, i was reading some conversation and dialogue
> > between Russel and Frederik Copleston. Copleston quotes a proffesor on a
> >  certain moment in time.He does that
> > to give an example about a water kettlle.
> > "One can boil the water and conclude that a lot of molecules will escape
> > from the kettle,but we cannot predict wich ones that will be."
> >
> > Nice
> > it made me think about metaphisical pigs,If pigs could fly, how high
> would
> > they go.?
> >
> > Probably i will have the Dutch version of religion in the making within
> > 2,weeks.
> > with comments and analisys from a local perfessor here.His own material.
> >
> > Adrie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2016-11-05 15:58 GMT+01:00 david <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on behalf of
> >> Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>
> >> Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 12:48 PM
> >> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> >> Subject: Wait, who's the fraudulent Ignoramous?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> John said to Adrie:
> >>
> >> "So you agree with Auxier that Pirsig derived his MoQ entirely from
> >> Whitehead?  To tell you the truth, I don't mind at all, it's just a
> shock
> >> to find out after all these years."
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> dmb says:
> >>
> >> John's approach is outrageously dishonest. It's slanderous bullshit from
> >> beginning to end. Not only is it a wild distortion to claim that you
> "agree
> >> with Auxier that Pirsig derived his MOQ entirely from Whitehead," it's
> >> simply not true that Auxier said anything like that. His claim was far
> more
> >> modest; there is zero chance that Pirsig didn't encounter Whitehead
> while
> >> he was in Chicago.
> >>
> >>
> >> But what makes these slanderous, fake debate even worse, is that it's
> >> really, really stupid. John would have us believe that Pirsig "is
> >> perpetrating one of the most elaborate frauds ever known" if he ever had
> >> actually read Whitehead. As if Pirsig had kept his Whitehead reading a
> big
> >> secret and then passed off Whitehead's thinking as his own thinking.
> But if
> >> Pirsig was trying to hide a secret connection to Whitehead, why would he
> >> quote the man in both of his books?
> >>
> >>
> >> If John were an honest person, he'd admit defeat when this simple
> evidence
> >> is presented and if were a moral person he'd apologize for making such
> ugly
> >> and baseless accusations. Let's ask Randy Auxier if there is a zero
> percent
> >> chance of that.
> >>
> >>
> >> Who wants to talk with a person who admits no such thing and apologizes
> >> for nothing - but instead doubles down in this bullshit? Not me.
> >>
> >>
> >> Disgusting.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Randall Auxier wrote to John:
> >>
> >> Zero. Chicago wasn't analytical at that time, and McKeon despised
> >> analytical philosophy. That day and age at U Chicago was 100% process
> >> philosophy, both in the Phil. dept and in every committee, including the
> >> Divinity School. The list of process-professors is endless. Zero.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> John wrote to Auxier:
> >>
> >> There are some pertinent biographical facts you're ignoring, Randy.
> You're
> >> thinking "he'd have to be crazy to be in Chicago and not have heard of
> >> Whitehead"  What you're forgetting is that he was crazy, and got so
> crazy
> >> he had to be locked up and given electroshock therapy where he had to
> >> reconstruct his earlier work by looking at notes he'd kept.    I offer a
> >> few pertinent comments from Pirsig, to illustrate my point that he
> wasn't
> >> much of a philosophy student. So Professor, are you still sure there is
> a
> >> ZERO chance that Pirsig didn't understand or read Whitehead?  If he did,
> >> then he's perpetrating one of the most elaborate frauds I've ever known.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Auxier's reply:
> >>
> >> Zero. You don't understand what actually happens in graduate seminars in
> >> philosophy, such as McKeon's. I have spent a lifetime both doing this
> and
> >> listening to it. You don't understand how students talk on their way
> into
> >> and out of class, or what they discuss on the days between. The entire
> >> heady scene of graduate school, which Pirsig describes quite nicely in
> Zen,
> >> includes all kinds of things that won't show up in books and letters. I
> >> assure you, he knew and heard about and probably read Whitehead while at
> >> Chicago. If his memory was wiped out, that is hardly evidence against
> what
> >> I'm saying. It helps my case. He relieved these ideas from the recesses
> of
> >> a damaged cerebral cortex. Nothing unusual about that.
> >>
> >> <http://moq.org/md/archives.html>
> >> MOQ Online - MOQ_Discuss<http://moq.org/md/archives.html>
> >> moq.org
> >> Robert M. Pirsig's MoQ deals with the fundamentals of existence and
> >> provides a more coherent system for understanding reality than our
> current
> >> paradigms allow
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
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> >> moq.org
> >> Robert M. Pirsig's MoQ deals with the fundamentals of existence and
> >> provides a more coherent system for understanding reality than our
> current
> >> paradigms allow
> >>
> >>
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> >
> >
> >
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