[MD] The Heinous Quadrilemma

[david]

________________________________
From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on behalf of mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2016 9:13 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The Heinous Quadrilemma

dmb,


>
>
> dmb had said:
>
> One say that "Pure experience" or Quality "logically precedes this
> distinction" just as one can say sleeping logically precedes waking.
>  In both cases, logic doesn't exist in that first stage but logic
> does obtain when we start thinking about it or talking about it. The
>  logic can also be expressed as a little argument: Since concepts
> are  derived from experience, the experiential material from which
> they  are derived must come before the concepts.
>


Tuukka repled to dmb:

Unlike Quality, "sleeping" is not an undefined concept. But you seem
to imply that logic doesn't exist when people sleep. Firstly, not
true. Some people have seen correct formal statements in their dreams.
My high school maths teacher told me Ramanujan did this. Secondly, not
relevant. Waking does not logically follow sleeping, it follows
sleeping temporally.

As for you little argument, well, I don't see the point. I'm fine with
the idea that concepts are derived from experience and that the
experiential material from which they are derived must come before the
concepts. But I'm saying the concepts are not deduced from the
experiential material. They also do not logically follow from it.
Deduction and logic is what you do when you already have a bunch of
concepts.



dmb says:

You've missed the point entirely so I'll try a more direct approach.


You're saying that concepts can't logically follow from pure experience because there is no logic in pure experience. The "logic" characterizes es the RELATION BETWEEN experience and concepts but you have been mistakenly using "logic" as if it were supposed to characterize pure experience. The same confusion occurred in your response to the sleeping-waking analogy, wherein you tried to characterize sleep as containing logic. Again, the logic describes the RELATION BETWEEN sleep and waking, i.e. you can't wake up unless you're sleeping.

Understanding an idea BEFORE criticizing it is also a logical necessity, by the way.







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