[MD] Rhetoric
David Harding
david at goodmetaphysics.com
Wed Jan 4 03:17:16 PST 2017
Hi Dolphin,
Great point and questions! In fact I ask myself these questions over and over again - indeed it’s a lifelong process! If you like you can check out my blog where I occasionally post along these lines at goodmetaphysics.com.
Thanks for some care.
-djh
> On Jan 4, 2017, at 10:03 AM, ngriffis <ngriffis at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
> It is ironic that this chat room is based on the philosophy of quality, as
> defined by Persig.
>
>
> Please, take a step away and let us talk about how someone, who
> believes in MOQ, applies these same principles to their lives. I once asked
> this board how they used the principals in their daily challenge to live
> their life qualitatively. You guys were off and running onto something else,
> but now I think it a good time to ask the question again. How do the
> participants of this board use what they learned from Persig to make their
> lives better?
>
>
> I have my faults. Everyone does. We are humans, but Persig pointed
> out a guide to a better way. I think that is why all of us are here talking
> about Zen and Art of MM, and Lila. He brought the idea of Quality to our
> attention. But, Quality and Persig's message is useless if we do not utilize
> the principles introduced.
>
>
> Here is another question for the circle. Where in ZMM does it speak
> to how to apply and seek Quality in one's life? What does it say about
> solving some of the basic and perennial human problems that we get caught in
> over and over again?
>
>
> Namaste and Shanti says it pretty well, especially during the holidays and
> new year.
>
>
> Signing off,
> Dolphin
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Horse [mailto:horse at darkstar.uk.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, January, 3, 2017 2:08 PM
> To: moq_discuss at lists.moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
>
>
> What are you on about? Are you a complete idiot or do you take the
> occasional day off?
> And if you want to carry on fucking with me then please go away and do it
> where someone gives a shit!
>
>
>
>
>
> On 03/01/2017 14:40, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>
>>
>> Horse,
>>
>>
>> okay, but I achieved the same effect by asking you permission to do
>> so! You see, I'm just copulating with ya.
>>
>>
>> Tuk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 03-Jan-17 16:19, Horse wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> No
>>>
>>>
>>> On 03/01/2017 10:08, mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Horse,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> GET BACK IN HERE AND TELL ME CAN I CALL RON A "DICKWAD" OR NOT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is funny because it's true. Wait, what is?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's true that by behaving this way I am actually acknowledging that
>>>> intellectual patterns depend on social patterns. They need social
>>>> patterns to survive. So I try to verify that my behavior is in
>>>> accordance with social norms.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> AND I'M STILL DOING IT WRONG
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But you don't have a category for the reason why it's wrong. I do,
>>>> and you refuse it because I have made it a humiliating thing to
>>>> accept. But your metaphysics doesn't explain this humiliating
>>>> feeling. It says you should thank me. Why don't you want to do so?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why don't you want to thank me for dominating sociality with
>>>> intellect while verifying that my behavior isn't socially
>>>> inappropriate?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tuk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lainaus mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Horse,
>>>>> Can we change the mailing list rules? I need to call Ron a
>>>>> "dickwad" as a part of a dialectical technique that seems
>>>>> rhetorical to him because he doesn't understand it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Lainaus Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ron,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and why am I asking you this question that sounds so offensive?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "What is so good about society that you would defend it against me?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree that sounds pretty selfish. But what's *wrong* about it
>>>>>> according to the MOQ? The MOQ doesn't state it's wrong to be selfish.
>>>>>> It states that intellect is superior to society.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point I am making here is a parody of what you believe in. It
>>>>>> is also a literally accurate implementation of your beliefs, if
>>>>>> you believe in Pirsig's MOQ, but it is so grotesque it is polite
>>>>>> to call it a parody.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See, I was being polite to you. But I don't sound polite anymore
>>>>>> because I made a fuss of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My current behavior lacks aesthetic appeal. You are capable of
>>>>>> intuitively perceiving this. But since you believe in Pirsig's MOQ
>>>>>> you are compelled to search for an explanation for your intuition
>>>>>> from the four boxes Pirsig gave to you. These are labeled
>>>>>> "inorganic", "biological", "social" and "intellectual".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You just sought for an explanation for your intuition from the box
>>>>>> labeled "social". According to Pirsig's MOQ this was the wrong
>>>>>> thing to do. Intellect is superior to society so you can't find
>>>>>> anything from that box that you could use to point out that
>>>>>> there's something wrong about my behavior.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From your viewpoint, your intuition of the repugnancy of my
>>>>>> behavior is Dynamic Quality! But if you keep experiencing it over
>>>>>> and over again it will cease to appear to be so Dynamic. So it
>>>>>> should become static.
>>>>>> But
>>>>>> if you believe in Pirsig's MOQ, this means your intuition should
>>>>>> eventually settle down in one of the four boxes provided by Robert
>>>>>> Pirsig.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I'm going to keep doing this until you:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Assign my repugnant behavior to a category provided by Pirsig
>>>>>> and explain the assignment
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> or:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Assume that you need more categories (which I have provided)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> so, which one is it going to be?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 02-Jan-17 14:06, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ron,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> what is so good about society that you would defend it against me?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:32, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ron,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If someone can devote time and effort for researching the
>>>>>>>> purported topic of this mailing list, it is regarded by
>>>>>>>> someone else as a bad thing. That someone else is put off by
>>>>>>>> himself having a job which precludes him from participating
>>>>>>>> except in a mediocre way. However, Phaedrus's aim in ZAMM was
>>>>>>>> not to define or discover or understand mediocrity. It was to
>>>>>>>> understand excellence.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:22, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please consider what it does to a person not to have a
>>>>>>>>> credible intellectual authority as a child. You are implying
>>>>>>>>> that I have caused this burden to fall upon me. But I have not
>>>>>>>>> caused the ineptitude of others.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When you are sick to death of my narcissism, you are sick to
>>>>>>>>> death of how insignificant it makes you feel. You think you
>>>>>>>>> are entitled to feel better. I think I am also entitled to
>>>>>>>>> feel better. But we don't, do we?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is the psychiatrist who put me on pension making a useful
>>>>>>>>> contribution to society? If not, why should I?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 18:01, X Acto wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tuk,
>>>>>>>>>> I guess everyone is being nice to you or ignoring you
>>>>>>>>>> because you're a "man-child" with out a job or purpose who
>>>>>>>>>> lives in his parents basement mentally masturbating to what
>>>>>>>>>> he thinks is his own genius. When in fact he is basing his
>>>>>>>>>> entire argument on a logical fallacy.
>>>>>>>>>> You may be a genius when it comes to logical functions but
>>>>>>>>>> when it comes to critical thinking skills you can't reason
>>>>>>>>>> yourself out of a wet paper bag.
>>>>>>>>>> Things aren't quiet because you are right and no one can
>>>>>>>>>> stand up to your towering intellect . It's that you're so
>>>>>>>>>> wrong no one has the time or energy to prove it to you and
>>>>>>>>>> your immense ego.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Since I have made a New Years resolution not to get involved
>>>>>>>>>> in discussions here that I can't devote my full attention
>>>>>>>>>> to, this tirade is basically cathartic. I'm sick to death of
>>>>>>>>>> your narcissism.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Grow up, get a job and make yourself useful to society And
>>>>>>>>>> have a great new year in the process.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -Ron
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 1, 2017, at 8:53 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko
>>>>>>>>>>> <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The brain is not a muscle, Dave. If you're wrong, that's it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 2:33, david wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Howdy, Adrie, MOQers all:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about Chris Langan's CTMU but Tuukka's
>>>>>>>>>>>> criticism is not correct.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The MOQ does not include anything like Kant's noumenal
>>>>>>>>>>>> reality or "things-in-themselves" and the MOQ holds that
>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenal reality is the only reality we can know. The
>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenal reality is NOT
>>>>>>>>>>>> romantic quality. When Pirsig refers to Dynamic Quality as
>>>>>>>>>>>> "direct everyday experience," "the primary empirical
>>>>>>>>>>>> reality," or quotes William James referring to "the
>>>>>>>>>>>> immediate flux of reality," and "pure experience" he is
>>>>>>>>>>>> talking about phenomenal reality as such.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tuukka's claims to have improved the MOQ are quite
>>>>>>>>>>>> preposterous. Obviously, there's no way to "improve" the
>>>>>>>>>>>> MOQ or create an alternative without understanding it first.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Buyer beware.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> behalf of Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 6:43 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think its good to read these materials.But things on
>>>>>>>>>>>> wiki's are not always what they seem.Some are very
>>>>>>>>>>>> deceptive.
>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, what this author is presenting here is actually
>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing more than a
>>>>>>>>>>>> collection of derivatives from Wittgensteins work on
>>>>>>>>>>>> logic.It is spiced and
>>>>>>>>>>>> salted with some previously known paradoxes in a new disguise.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The best way of putting it ,in my opinion,is to regard it
>>>>>>>>>>>> as a new attempt
>>>>>>>>>>>> to launch the Tractatus-logico etc,....explained with the
>>>>>>>>>>>> terminology of a
>>>>>>>>>>>> computerprogrammer, or a very strong logical thinker.And a
>>>>>>>>>>>> very intelligent
>>>>>>>>>>>> thinker,...clearly,this however does not prove him right in
>>>>>>>>>>>> any way or field.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think it will generate clarifications on reality
>>>>>>>>>>>> itself,or add new
>>>>>>>>>>>> insights;
>>>>>>>>>>>> it is kinda developed to work as an upide down gearbox,not
>>>>>>>>>>>> shifting up, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> in fact , shifting down further, in a halted car.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wished you would not take this as critisism, because it
>>>>>>>>>>>> is'nt.You should
>>>>>>>>>>>> explore these things, they are less boring than
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wittgenstein,and he was not all that clever also.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> the only part of critics i have is about your statement,
>>>>>>>>>>>> "competitor to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> moq and amoq", There is no competion,connection,or game to win.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016-12-31 8:52 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Langan, developer of the CTMU, which is a competitor
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the MOQ and AMOQ, does not understand the MOQ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Citing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://ctmucommunity.org/wiki/Cognitive-Theoretic_Model_of_
>>>>>>>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>>>>>> he_Universe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, mind acts as a filter: that which does
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not conform to mental categories is irrelevant to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> perception, and therefore not real.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Langan here breaks with Kant, who posited a noumenal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reality of "things-in-themselves", independent of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenal reality we perceive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Discarding this "Kantian fallacy", Langan rejects noumena
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as oxymoronic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "inconceivable concepts"[21] and holds that phenomenal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reality, as the only
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reality we can know, is the only reality there is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This means Langan's understanding of philosophy is at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> level of ZAMM.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not at the level of LILA. The phenomenal reality is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> romantic quality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Langan is oblivious to Dynamic Quality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---
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>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
> "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments
> that take our breath away."
> - Bob Moorehead
>
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