[MD] Rhetoric

ngriffis ngriffis at bellsouth.net
Tue Jan 3 15:03:28 PST 2017 

It is ironic that this chat room is based on the philosophy of quality, as
defined by Persig. 

	Please, take a step away and let us talk about how someone, who
believes in MOQ, applies these same principles to their lives. I once asked
this board how they used the principals in their daily challenge to live
their life qualitatively. You guys were off and running onto something else,
but now I think it a good time to ask the question again. How do the
participants of this board use what they learned from Persig to make their
lives better?

	I have my faults. Everyone does. We are humans, but Persig pointed
out a guide to a better way. I think that is why all of us are here talking
about Zen and Art of MM, and Lila. He brought the idea of Quality to our
attention. But, Quality and Persig's message is useless if we do not utilize
the principles introduced.

	Here is another question for the circle. Where in ZMM does it speak
to how to apply and seek Quality in one's life? What does it say about
solving some of the basic and perennial human problems that we get caught in
over and over again? 

Namaste and Shanti says it pretty well, especially during the holidays and
new year.

Signing off,
Dolphin

-----Original Message-----
From: Horse [mailto:horse at darkstar.uk.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, January, 3, 2017 2:08 PM
To: moq_discuss at lists.moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric

What are you on about? Are you a complete idiot or do you take the
occasional day off?
And if you want to carry on fucking with me then please go away and do it
where someone gives a shit!


On 03/01/2017 14:40, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
> Horse,
>
> okay, but I achieved the same effect by asking you permission to do 
> so! You see, I'm just copulating with ya.
>
> Tuk
>
>
>
>
> On 03-Jan-17 16:19, Horse wrote:
>> No
>>
>> On 03/01/2017 10:08, mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net wrote:
>>> Horse,
>>>
>>> GET BACK IN HERE AND TELL ME CAN I CALL RON A "DICKWAD" OR NOT
>>>
>>> It is funny because it's true. Wait, what is?
>>>
>>> It's true that by behaving this way I am actually acknowledging that 
>>> intellectual patterns depend on social patterns. They need social 
>>> patterns to survive. So I try to verify that my behavior is in 
>>> accordance with social norms.
>>>
>>> AND I'M STILL DOING IT WRONG
>>>
>>> But you don't have a category for the reason why it's wrong. I do, 
>>> and you refuse it because I have made it a humiliating thing to 
>>> accept. But your metaphysics doesn't explain this humiliating 
>>> feeling. It says you should thank me. Why don't you want to do so?
>>>
>>> Why don't you want to thank me for dominating sociality with 
>>> intellect while verifying that my behavior isn't socially 
>>> inappropriate?
>>>
>>> Tuk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Lainaus mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net:
>>>
>>>> Horse,
>>>> Can we change the mailing list rules? I need to call Ron a 
>>>> "dickwad" as a part of a dialectical technique that seems 
>>>> rhetorical to him because he doesn't understand it.
>>>>
>>>> Tuk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lainaus Tuukka Virtaperko <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>>
>>>>> Ron,
>>>>>
>>>>> and why am I asking you this question that sounds so offensive?
>>>>>
>>>>> "What is so good about society that you would defend it against me?"
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that sounds pretty selfish. But what's *wrong* about it 
>>>>> according to the MOQ? The MOQ doesn't state it's wrong to be selfish.
>>>>> It states that intellect is superior to society.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point I am making here is a parody of what you believe in. It 
>>>>> is also a literally accurate implementation of your beliefs, if 
>>>>> you believe in Pirsig's MOQ, but it is so grotesque it is polite 
>>>>> to call it a parody.
>>>>>
>>>>> See, I was being polite to you. But I don't sound polite anymore 
>>>>> because I made a fuss of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> My current behavior lacks aesthetic appeal. You are capable of 
>>>>> intuitively perceiving this. But since you believe in Pirsig's MOQ 
>>>>> you are compelled to search for an explanation for your intuition 
>>>>> from the four boxes Pirsig gave to you. These are labeled 
>>>>> "inorganic", "biological", "social" and "intellectual".
>>>>>
>>>>> You just sought for an explanation for your intuition from the box 
>>>>> labeled "social". According to Pirsig's MOQ this was the wrong 
>>>>> thing to do. Intellect is superior to society so you can't find 
>>>>> anything from that box that you could use to point out that 
>>>>> there's something wrong about my behavior.
>>>>>
>>>>> From your viewpoint, your intuition of the repugnancy of my 
>>>>> behavior is Dynamic Quality! But if you keep experiencing it over 
>>>>> and over again it will cease to appear to be so Dynamic. So it 
>>>>> should become static.
>>>>> But
>>>>> if you believe in Pirsig's MOQ, this means your intuition should 
>>>>> eventually settle down in one of the four boxes provided by Robert 
>>>>> Pirsig.
>>>>>
>>>>> And I'm going to keep doing this until you:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Assign my repugnant behavior to a category provided by Pirsig 
>>>>> and explain the assignment
>>>>>
>>>>> or:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Assume that you need more categories (which I have provided)
>>>>>
>>>>> so, which one is it going to be?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 02-Jan-17 14:06, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>>> Ron,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> what is so good about society that you would defend it against me?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:32, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>>>> Ron,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If someone can devote time and effort for researching the   
>>>>>>> purported topic of this mailing list, it is regarded by 
>>>>>>> someone   else as a bad thing. That someone else is put off by 
>>>>>>> himself   having a job which precludes him from participating 
>>>>>>> except in a mediocre way. However, Phaedrus's aim in ZAMM was 
>>>>>>> not to define or  discover or understand mediocrity. It was to 
>>>>>>> understand  excellence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 02-Jan-17 13:22, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote:
>>>>>>>> Please consider what it does to a person not to have a 
>>>>>>>> credible   intellectual authority as a child. You are implying 
>>>>>>>> that I have caused this burden to fall upon me. But I have not 
>>>>>>>> caused the  ineptitude of others.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When you are sick to death of my narcissism, you are sick to   
>>>>>>>> death of how insignificant it makes you feel. You think you 
>>>>>>>> are   entitled to feel better. I think I am also entitled to 
>>>>>>>> feel   better. But we don't, do we?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is the psychiatrist who put me on pension making a useful   
>>>>>>>> contribution to society? If not, why should I?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 18:01, X Acto wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tuk,
>>>>>>>>> I guess everyone is being nice to you or ignoring you 
>>>>>>>>> because   you're a "man-child" with out a job or purpose who 
>>>>>>>>> lives in his   parents basement mentally masturbating to what 
>>>>>>>>> he thinks is  his own genius. When in fact he is basing his 
>>>>>>>>> entire argument  on a logical fallacy.
>>>>>>>>> You may be a genius when it comes to logical functions but 
>>>>>>>>> when   it comes to critical thinking skills you can't reason 
>>>>>>>>> yourself   out of a wet paper bag.
>>>>>>>>> Things aren't quiet because you are right and no one can 
>>>>>>>>> stand   up to your towering intellect . It's that you're so 
>>>>>>>>> wrong no  one  has the time or energy to prove it to you and 
>>>>>>>>> your immense  ego.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Since I have made a New Years resolution not to get involved 
>>>>>>>>> in   discussions here that I can't devote my full attention 
>>>>>>>>> to,  this  tirade is basically cathartic. I'm sick to death of 
>>>>>>>>> your  narcissism.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Grow up, get a job and make yourself useful to society And 
>>>>>>>>> have   a great new year in the process.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Ron
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 1, 2017, at 8:53 AM, Tuukka Virtaperko 
>>>>>>>>>> <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The brain is not a muscle, Dave. If you're wrong, that's it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 01-Jan-17 2:33, david wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Howdy, Adrie, MOQers all:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know about Chris Langan's CTMU but Tuukka's 
>>>>>>>>>>> criticism   is not correct.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The MOQ does not include anything like Kant's noumenal 
>>>>>>>>>>> reality  or "things-in-themselves" and the MOQ holds that 
>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenal  reality is the only reality we can know. The 
>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenal reality is NOT
>>>>>>>>>>> romantic   quality. When Pirsig refers to Dynamic Quality as 
>>>>>>>>>>> "direct   everyday experience," "the primary empirical 
>>>>>>>>>>> reality," or   quotes William James referring to "the 
>>>>>>>>>>> immediate flux of reality," and "pure experience" he is 
>>>>>>>>>>> talking about  phenomenal reality as such.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tuukka's claims to have improved the MOQ are quite   
>>>>>>>>>>> preposterous. Obviously, there's no way to "improve" the 
>>>>>>>>>>> MOQ   or create an alternative without understanding it first.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Buyer beware.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org> on  
>>>>>>>>>>> behalf of Adrie Kintziger <parser666 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 6:43 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think its good to read these materials.But things on 
>>>>>>>>>>> wiki's are not always what they seem.Some are very 
>>>>>>>>>>> deceptive.
>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, what this author is presenting here is actually   
>>>>>>>>>>> nothing more than a
>>>>>>>>>>> collection of derivatives from Wittgensteins work on 
>>>>>>>>>>> logic.It   is spiced and
>>>>>>>>>>> salted with some previously known paradoxes in a new disguise.
>>>>>>>>>>> The best way of putting it  ,in my opinion,is to regard it 
>>>>>>>>>>> as   a new attempt
>>>>>>>>>>> to launch the Tractatus-logico etc,....explained with the   
>>>>>>>>>>> terminology of a
>>>>>>>>>>> computerprogrammer, or a very strong logical thinker.And a   
>>>>>>>>>>> very intelligent
>>>>>>>>>>> thinker,...clearly,this however does not prove him right in 
>>>>>>>>>>> any way or field.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think it will generate clarifications on reality   
>>>>>>>>>>> itself,or add new
>>>>>>>>>>> insights;
>>>>>>>>>>> it is kinda developed to work as an upide down gearbox,not   
>>>>>>>>>>> shifting up, but
>>>>>>>>>>> in fact , shifting down further, in a halted car.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wished you would not take this as critisism, because it   
>>>>>>>>>>> is'nt.You should
>>>>>>>>>>> explore these things, they are less boring than 
>>>>>>>>>>> Wittgenstein,and he was not all that clever also.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the only part of critics i have is about your statement,   
>>>>>>>>>>> "competitor to the
>>>>>>>>>>> moq and amoq", There is no competion,connection,or game to win.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2016-12-31 8:52 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko
>>>>>>>>>>> <mail at tuukkavirtaperko.net>:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Langan, developer of the CTMU, which is a competitor 
>>>>>>>>>>>> to  the MOQ and AMOQ, does not understand the MOQ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Citing
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://ctmucommunity.org/wiki/Cognitive-Theoretic_Model_of_
>>>>>>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>>>>>>> he_Universe
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, mind acts as a filter: that which does 
>>>>>>>>>>>> not  conform to mental categories is irrelevant to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> perception, and therefore  not real.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Langan here breaks with Kant, who posited a noumenal 
>>>>>>>>>>>> reality of "things-in-themselves", independent of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> phenomenal reality  we perceive.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Discarding this "Kantian fallacy", Langan rejects noumena 
>>>>>>>>>>>> as   oxymoronic
>>>>>>>>>>>> "inconceivable concepts"[21] and holds that phenomenal   
>>>>>>>>>>>> reality, as the only
>>>>>>>>>>>> reality we can know, is the only reality there is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ***
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This means Langan's understanding of philosophy is at the   
>>>>>>>>>>>> level of ZAMM.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not at the level of LILA. The phenomenal reality is   
>>>>>>>>>>>> romantic quality.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Langan is oblivious to Dynamic Quality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tuk
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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-- 


"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments
that take our breath away."
- Bob Moorehead


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