[MD] The need for quality

Thu Sep 7 05:10:42 PDT 2017

Thanks to explain,Wes,i apologise for a bad judgement on my behalf. your
knowledge is as good as mine, and Anyone else. I have only a very thin
laden mindset on the field of fitness, survival of the fittest, and fitness
in Turing machines. I nested the term quality in the content and context of
your posting ,honestly, not to attach iT to fitness,or superpose or
substituate it in its meaning,.......but i believe that Pirsig was heading
for another direction in his interpr of the term.Nobody needs to adopt iT
of course! of you like to talk about other Things i Will engage decent
postings. Adrie.

Op donderdag 7 september 2017 heeft WES STEWART <wesstt at shaw.ca> het
volgende geschreven:

> Hell Dan and All;
>
> I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from William
> Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart and Deming
> were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission lines at
> Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state of
> continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then used
> their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
>
> Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the SYSTEM,
> in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from Biologically
> dominated human beings.
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <daneglover at gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> To: "moq discuss" <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 5:02:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> '
> Wes, all,
>
> Quality exists in thought and deed. Sure. The future? No idea about
> that. I'd say there's an even chance no matter what we project the
> future to be, we'll be wrong. But even that supposition is apt to be
> mistaken. This moment so fleeting, I do my best to keep close to it
> and not worry too much about the past or bother with the future. I
> look at both as malleable, dependent upon this moment to exist.
>
> I met a couple from New Mexico while watching the eclipse last month.
> New agers. They had their crystals laid out on a prayer rug to soak in
> the energy from the eclipse and when I went to pick one up they damned
> near stroked out. Don't touch it! she hollers, like I'm about to reach
> out and stroke a live rattlesnake. Apparently my negative energy'd
> wreck havoc with the crystal. I'm the only person who has ever handled
> it, she says, as a means of apology I think. I wanted to explain to
> her that unless she dug a cave into the side of a mountain to burrow
> on her belly and extract the crystal and then polished it to a high
> sheen, odds were somebody else definitely touched the stone somewhere
> along the way, but hey.
>
> I think we many times become blind to other than that which we value.
> Like that woman with the crystal, we become defensive about the
> choices we make. We work a job we hate on account of culture informing
> us how we have to earn a living - somehow. It isn't that money is
> evil. Rather, often times we tend to overlook what we have to do in
> order to accrue it. The value of having a fine home and driving a
> shiny car obscure the feelings of remorse in how we spend our days
> earning it. Until it is too late.
>
> One of my favorite parts in ZMM is when the narrator and Chris are
> tooling down the highway in a rainstorm and the bike is slowly
> petering out 50mph 40 30 20 and as they are coasting along in a
> torrential downpour some lady is staring out her car window at them in
> horror and that's how I feel when I hear people hating on their jobs.
> Only I'm not the lady in the car, oh no. I'm the guy on the bike doing
> me some living. So there's that...
>
> On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 12:58 AM, WES STEWART <wesstt at shaw.ca
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > Hello Dan;
> >
> > What did Pirsig think was more of a reality, truth or quality? The
> sophists and Plato insisted quality was and so did Pirsig, there is nothing
> vague about it. All of his students could not define it, they could also
> measure it and agree. Truth should have never usurped quality (or the good)
> as the reality, for its subject object based. Pirsig swaps things around;
> the present state is a horse and carriage, the future state is the
> automobile. Now what is the state that you would define that is in between
> them? He cannot analyze the point that is in between both, all he knows is
> that it is defined as quality. Why it should exist this ratcheting we do
> not know? The space in between the betterment is what was the cause of
> Pirsigs first breakdown. That space is undefinable, why it even exists who
> knows.
> >
> > I can say that quality exists in what Andrew thought, ask me as to the
> space in between past employer and present employer what is it? I do not
> know.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: "Dan Glover" <daneglover at gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > To: "moq discuss" <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 9:30:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Wes, all,
> >
> > I'm unsure what you strongly disagree with. That the MOQ states there
> > is no true reality? From Lila:
> >
> > "Historically mystics have claimed that for a true understanding of
> > reality metaphysics is too "scientific." Metaphysics is not reality.
> > Metaphysics is names about reality. Metaphysics is a restaurant where
> > they give you a thirty-thousand page menu and no food."
> >
> > "The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had
> > called "Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece.
> > Quality doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without
> > definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a direct experience
> > independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions."
> >
> > "Quality is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable in the sense that
> > there is a knower and a known, but a metaphysics can be none of these
> > things. A metaphysics must be divisible, definable, and know able, or
> > there isn't any metaphysics. Since a metaphysics is essentially a kind
> > of dialectical definition and since Quality is essentially outside
> > definition, this means that a "Metaphysics of Quality" is essentially
> > a contradiction in terms, a logical absurdity."
> >
> > A logical absurdity, yes. In this sense, Robert Pirsig defined static
> > quality but kept Dynamic Quality concept free. So no. Pirsig did not
> > define exactitude as in absolute truth. More from Lila:
> >
> > "There's a principle in physics that if a thing can't be distinguished
> > from anything else it doesn't exist. To this the Metaphysics of
> > Quality adds a second principle: if a thing has no value it isn't
> > distinguished from anything else. Then, putting the two together, a
> > thing that has no value does not exist. The thing has not created the
> > value. The value has created the thing. When it is seen that value is
> > the front edge of experience, there is no problem for empiricists
> > here. It simply restates the empiricists' belief that experience is
> > the starting point of all reality. The only problem is for a
> > subject-object metaphysics that calls itself empiricism.
> >
> > " This may sound as though a purpose of the Metaphysics of Quality is
> > to trash all subject-object thought but that's not true. Unlike
> > subject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist
> > on a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be
> > the ultimate reality then we're permitted only one construction of
> > things-that which corresponds to the "objective" world-and all other
> > constructions are unreal. But if Quality or excellence is seen as the
> > ultimate reality then it becomes possible for more than one set of
> > truths to exist.
> >
> > "Then one doesn't seek the absolute "Truth."
> >
> > "One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of
> > things with the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future
> > this explanation must be taken provisionally; as useful until
> > something better comes along. One can then examine intellectual
> > realities the same way he examines paintings in an art gallery, not
> > with an effort to find out which one is the "real" painting, but
> > simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There are many sets
> > of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have
> > more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result of
> > our history and current patterns of values."
> >
> > Let's stop here for now. If you are still feeling disagreeable, please
> > specify why.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 1:28 AM, WES STEWART <wesstt at shaw.ca
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >> Hello Dan;
> >>
> >> I disagree strongly, Pirsig defines an exactitude, Andrew is there, he
> is making the world a better place,he is a quality thinker. Quality is the
> reality, if I can look at my twenty year old work boots or hockey skates
> that is a static pattern of quality, in 2017 we have something entirely
> different.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: "Dan Glover" <daneglover at gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> >> To: "moq discuss" <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> >> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 12:08:28 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >>
> >> Wes, all,
> >>
> >> I'm pretty sure the MOQ says how there is no 'true' reality. I think
> >> it was John Carl who said someone developed a mirror to show a person
> >> their 'true' image. Only if you stop and consider how we view reality
> >> through the lens of our own personal history, it becomes apparent what
> >> is true for one person isn't for another.
> >>
> >> Interacting with others is not biological quality but rather social
> >> quality patterns. That isn't to say social quality is composed of
> >> biological beings, however. Rather it is the relationships existing
> >> between people which comprise social patterns. So it behooves us all
> >> to take care with who we interact no matter the circumstances.
> >>
> >> Biological quality has nothing to do with intellectual quality.
> >> Meaning and purpose are intellectual patterns which can indeed rely on
> >> comfort and money. What's the old saying? It is hard to remember how
> >> you're original intention was to drain the swamp when you're up to
> >> your ass in alligators. In other words, when a person is beset by
> >> poverty, their primary goal in life is to feed house and clothe their
> >> family. Not doing philosophy.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:01 PM, WES STEWART <wesstt at shaw.ca
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> Hello Andrew and Dan,
> >>>
> >>> There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our
> biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right,
> you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its
> not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile
> that are the only things we can measure.
> >>>
> >>> We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not
> subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.
> >>>
> >>> It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life,
> because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you
> interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration
> camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however
> it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side,
> because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not
> rely on comfort level or money.
> >>>
> >>> Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at
> that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul
> Hilberg.
> >>>
> >>
> >> http://www.danglover.com
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> >
> >
> >
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