[MF] Testing Testing

Matt Kundert pirsigaffliction at hotmail.com
Fri Nov 4 08:08:01 PST 2005


Wim said:
Interesting suggestion [from Paul] to separate a 
'Pirsig'-supportive/supported forum from a 'Criticism'-forum.

Ian said:
For reasons Paul suggests I'm OK with a two way split - one intended for 
pro-MoQ / clarifying discussion and another intended for anti-MoQ / 
alternative metaphysical issues.

The split can only be "intent". As Matt points out (and I did in the other 
thread) draconion rules and control of who posts where would be doomed - and 
I'm sure Horse didn't plan and hard controls anyway.

Matt:
I wanted to clarify my suggestion.  I think Paul's PIRSIG/CRIT suggestion 
had sufficient room in it to draw two different ideas of what the suggestion 
was.  It only occured to my after I wrote out my response, and then read Wim 
and Ian, that maybe what I wrote wasn't what Paul was suggesting.  I wasn't 
suggesting, as Ian read me, when I talked about dissent being inevitable 
that "draconian rules and control of who posts where would be doomed."  In 
some sense, I would agree that there would be that kind of trouble if we go 
with a pro-MoQ/anti-MoQ dual forums.  I was suggesting that the split, 
rather than pro/anti, should be exegetical/general application, the 
difference between what I've called doing biography and doing philosophy.  
In one forum, you bracket what you think and try and find out what Pirsig 
thinks.  In the other forum, you adumbrate what you think, using what Pirsig 
thinks to help (if you're so inclined).

A split between pro- and anti- forums would be tough for a number of 
practical reasons, but it'd also be tough for people with slightly more 
complicated relationships to Pirsig, like myself and Sam.  You can't exactly 
call us "anti-MoQ," though you wouldn't exactly call us "pro-MoQ" either.  
Aside from that there are the practical problems, like enforcement on 
loosely based rules.  My guess is that either the forums would devolve into 
two versions of the MD without much difference between them, or people 
getting pissed at each other and the moderators for, instead of being told 
"This is a Pirsig website.  Go somewhere else," being told, "You're in the 
wrong forum.  Go to the other one."  One upshot of my suggestion is that it 
isn't as loose as pro/anti.  It is fairly simple most of the time to be able 
to differentiate between the two, both in others and in yourself.  "What 
does Pirsig think?" as opposed to "What do I think about what Pirsig 
thinks?"  Its the same split in the humanities between intellectual history 
and philosophy.  An intellectual historian pretty much knows how to tell the 
difference between himself and a philosopher and vice versa (though, 
granted, there will be quite a bit of muddy area, like the kind I mentioned 
in the previous post with extentions, extrapolations, judgments, etc.).  And 
neither does there need to be any snootyness between people with different 
opinions on pro- or anti- when told they're in the wrong forum.  The 
biography/philosophy activity distinction cuts _across_ whether you are for 
or against Pirsig.  It would just be two different activities.

Ian also said:
Another point of Paul's I think .... limiting how much posting ....

Nice idea, but how many posts per day / week is too restricting, it needs to 
be how many words. There must be an easy way for people to upload "essays" 
and limiting posts to a few tens / hundreds of words.  A discussion forum 
needs to be conversationally interactive.

Matt:
Chalk this up to a difference in opinion, but as much as Ian may dislike 
long posts, I dislike a profusion of posts with hip-shot one-liners.  Both 
have there time and place and uses, but there's nothing I find more annoying 
than trying to figure out if there's something important hiding behind a two 
sentence reply to something it took my a couple of hours to write.  And then 
being wrong about what the person was saying because they didn't say much, 
etc., etc.  Usually if I can't think of anything I would want to reply with 
that is more than a couple of paragraphs, I don't bother saying anything 
'cuz I don't want to waste anybody's time.

Matt

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