[MF] faith, hope and love

Marty Jorgensen mjorgensen at vpdinc.com
Wed Jan 25 20:57:10 PST 2006


Kevin - You asked:
  	What would you say is the basis for true meaning?  Does meaning,
assuming it is possible for an observer to apprehend it, require some
orientation or disposition or effort on the part of the observer?  And 	if
this observer chooses not to make the effort is the meaning empty 	for
all observers?
This thread had evolved into a discussion of faith, and how it applies to
the MOQ.  We are free to hold whatever beliefs we want and act on them
accordingly and we can assign whatever personal meaning we desire, but when
we want to DISCUSS these beliefs and argue that they have some validity to
others, then we are required to make a case for our argument.

You started this conversation on faith with a quote:

	"Faith is not always religious in its content or context.  To ask
     these questions seriously of oneself or others does not
     necessarily mean to elicit answers about religious commitment or 
     belief.  Faith is a person's or group's way of moving into the force
     field of life.  It is our way of finding coherence in and giving
     meaning to the multiple forces and relations that make up our
     lives.  Faith is a person's way of seeing him- or herself in relation
     to others against the background of shared meaning and purpose."

These are statements that seem to be meant to describe what "faith" is, but
they don't do that.  Sentences like "Faith is a person's or group's way of
moving into the force field of life" APPEAR to define what faith is, but it
doesn't succeed; in fact, it creates more questions then it answers.  What
is the 'force field of life'? What is it in faith that facilitates movement
through this force field?  These quotes sound more like poetry and a
description.  I don't have anything against poetry, but when we are
discussing metaphysics, I think some more precise defining is called for.
For instance, "Faith is a person's way of seeing him or herself in relation
to others against the background of shared meaning and purpose" doesn't
having any meaning. It tries to define 'faith' in terms of "a way of seeing"
- what doe that mean?  Is faith like a pair of glasses? - Of course not, but
we get no clue from this statement.

So, you asked "What would you say is the basis for true meaning?"
I would say that in this case the basis would be understanding and clarity.
If faith is to be considered as an issue, it needs a better description; it
can't be a private experience that can't be translated.  

"Does meaning, assuming it is possible for an observer to apprehend it,
require some orientation or disposition or effort on the part of the
observer?" 
Yes, I think so.  Like the relationships you were talking about, meaning
requires a two-way street; meaning either conveys or symbolizes - it can do
neither without someone to understand what is conveyed.

"And if this observer chooses not to make the effort is the meaning empty
for all observers?"
No, each stands alone, although if the meaning is ambiguous then no one may
have a clear understanding.

Marty J







-----Original Message-----
From: moq_focus-bounces at moqtalk.org [mailto:moq_focus-bounces at moqtalk.org]
On Behalf Of Kevin Perez
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 3:31 PM
To: moq_focus at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MF] faith, hope and love

    Marty,
   
  Thanks for the feedback.
   
  I'd like to learn more about thoughts on this subject.
   
  You wrote,

> My point is that we can always attribute an event to something or other,
but
> attributing it doesn't make it true.  Saying that I win because I have
good
> luck doesn't say anything about what good luck is or even if it exists -
it
> just says that I claim I have it; it can't be refuted or denied, but it's
> meaning is empty.
   
  What would you say is the basis for true meaning?  Does meaning, assuming
  it is possible for an observer to apprehend it, require some orientation
or
  disposition or effort on the part of the observer?  And if this observer
chooses
  not to make the effort is the meaning empty for all observers?
   
  Thanks.
   
   
  Kevin



		
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