[MD] What is the oppostite of Quality?

[John Carl]

I agree Bruce,

DQ patterns, entropy un-patterns.  The patterns are sq.

There's the world in a nutshell.

John

On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 8:59 AM, Bruce Underwood <bruce.underwood at hotmail.com
> wrote:

>
>
> Hello All, I really appreciate your responses on this... it certainly feeds
> my mind...
>
> In my reference to chaos, it is not concerning a branch of science, but a
> simple concept of organization breaking down into a disorganized state.
> www.dictionary.com:
>        1. a state of utter confusion or disorder; a total lack of
> organization or order.
>
>
>  It appears to me that there are two systems at work and perhaps that is
> Dynamic Quality creating Dynamic Chaos or destruction.  However, there is
> "something" that causes things to move from a state of disorder to order
> that does not alighn with the 2nd law of thermodynmics and that to me is
> Quality.  I see it that anything that is organized into patterns did that
> out of Dynamic Quality and is Quality itself.  If it is not organized it is
> in a state of chaos.  However, what is it that moves things from a state of
> organization back to chaos?  Is that Quality?  If so, then it appears that
> Quality is both Dynamic Quality and Dynamic Chaos...
>
> Perhaps I put to much emphasis on the 2nd law of thermodynmics, but Pirsig
> does reference this in Lila. Things left alone will break down from an
> organized state to a state of disorganization. (need to find it)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bruce
>
>
> [Dan]
> > chaos
> >
> > A new branch of science that deals with systems whose evolution
> > depends very sensitively upon the initial conditions. Turbulent flows
> > of fluids (such as white water in a river) and the prediction of the
> > weather are two areas where chaos theory has been applied with some
> > success. (www.dictionary.com)
> >
> > I think it is pretty clear that this is not what Robert Pirsig means
> > by Dynamic Quality. I recall that I once asked him about whether it
> > was wise to say Dynamic Quality is always positive. He said (and I
> > paraphrase) perhaps not, that it might be better to say it's not this,
> > not that. It is in LILA'S CHILD toward the end.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Krimel  wrote:
> >>> [Krimel]
> >>> What a depressing quote. Chaos is not always a destructive force in
> fact
> >>> it is the creative power of the universe. Order is a subset of chaos.
> If
> >>> this was a fairly new idea when Pirsig wrote Lila is was not 10 years
> >>> later. He really should know better.
> >>
> >> [Steve]
> >> If you are calling chaos the creative power of the universe and order
> >> a subject of chaos, it sounds like what you are calling chaos Pirsig
> >> calls Quality.
> >>
> >> [Krimel]
> >> Yes, and I have been doing so consistently for years now.
> >>
> >> Just look at the quote Andre provided:
> >>
> >> 'Dynamic Quality and chaos are both patternless, and so it would seem
> they
> >> have a lot in common, particularly the fact that you can't say anything
> >> about them without getting into static patterns."
> >>
> >> [Krimel]
> >> Yes, yes, you are almost there Bob. It is like the passage in Lila where
> you
> >> say that the MoQ could almost be thought of as a Metaphysics of
> Randomness.
> >>
> >> [Unfortunately the quote continues...]
> >> "But if you do, you can say that Dynamic Quality is good and precedes
> static
> >> improvement. It is the source of experience. Chaos, by contrast is the
> >> condition of total destruction. You can't call it either good or bad.
> >> It is not the source of anything'."
> >>
> >> [Krimel]
> >> This just reduces DQ to anything that is "good" not all DQ is good and
> DQ
> >> does not always precede static improvement. Conversely chaos does not
> always
> >> produce destruction. Selection of lottery tickets is a chaotic process
> and
> >> it often produces enormous good for someone. Chaos only looks
> destructive
> >> because disordered states are much more likely than ordered states.
> >>
> >> Chaos is a creative force in the universe because it means that nothing
> is
> >> ever rigid and fixed and lawful. Everything is changing chaotically and
> >> there is always room of "oops" and "aha". The world is not a Newtonian
> >> billiard table, an idealized plane and hypothetical spheres. The world
> is a
> >> pool hall with erratic lighting, free flowing alcohol and sexual
> tension.
> >> What determines whether or not the eight ball lands in the side pocket
> is,
> >> more often than not, the whims of Bacchus and Eros not the Laws of
> geometry
> >> and physics.
> >>
> >>
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