[MD] The Greeks?

[skutvik at online.no]

Ron 

Jun 11. you began by speaking to Mary: 

> Right, understanding the good on other levels other than objective
> analysis is understanding the good in terms of human values, meaning
> objective truth is one of many intellectual values that are valued as
> "good". 

The objective-over-subjective is the only way intellect CAN do its job of 
bringing social  value under control. Just as the social level must be 
"commonality" to bring biology under control, and biology must be Life 
to beat (inorganic) Death. Any other way of regarding intellect (than 
S/O) throws it back into its mind role and the MOQ into disarray.     

> The problem, like you said, is defining all intellectual good in one
> particular way, for example such as objective analysis being the only way
> to value an experience, it takes centre stage and devalues any other
> method of making intellectual value judgements. But if it is understood as
> one among many ways to make intellectual value judgements, one has a wider
> array of understanding,explaining and justifying the values you hold. It
> provides" greater explainitory power."

I can't believe that Mary sees any problem with defining intellect the 
S/O way, but what ails your thinking is that you see intellect AS 
THINKING ITSELF and if all thinking is objective then we are in 
trouble, and if THAT had been the case but it is not. Intellect has 
hijacked our intelligence, but is not intelligence. The MOQ will - if it 
gets a chance kick intellect out of the computer chair and apply 
intelligence to think from moqish premises, but you and the the .... 
refuse to change premises.  

Ron:
> And the 2nd level is the physical level we know as "body" or experience as
> "body", experience Bodvar, it's all predicated on experience so certainly
> the intellectual level is the experience of thinking. 

The 2nd. is the Biological level and its sworn enemy is the inorganic 
(Physical) level. I don't know how to set all this nonsense right. There 
is plenty of intelligent thinking by way of language at the social level 
and obviously lots of intelligent animals though not via language. 
Intellect has nothing particularly to do with thinking-as-intelligence, but 
is the level where the difference between thinking as a subjective 
exercise and the objects OF thinking was invented. That is its 
enormous value.    

> The experience Bodvar. Reality is experience. the four levels of value,
> Bodvar. MoQ is an intellectual (the experience of thinking) value, it
> is an intellectual good. Because unlike s/o Logic it does not limit
> itself, blind itself to all else but an Objective analytic
> interpetation of value. Which incidentally, is the basis of your entire
> SOL arguement whether you realize it or not.   

Yes the MOQ sees that intellects S/O is a mere static value, that was 
how it could take SOM down from its former position to the more 
humble one as the 4th. Q-level. Yet,  the MOQ can't intervene with the 
static levels, only us initiated can come down from the metaphysical 
"Sinai" and live on the static range but no longer being oppressed by 
intellect's former SOM-induced troubles.  

> Your entire arguement for SOL is based on Objective analytical logical
> reasons and the holding of those reasons as the justification to require
> it only way in which true intellectual value judgements may be made.

That's right and lots of instances in LILA  - when intellect's role is 
treated - shows it in its proper SOM (scientific - knowledge) role. This 
demonstrates that Pirsig simply found no other aspect to intellect ... 
when he wrote freely and naturally. However when ASKED about 
intellect he invents all kind of strange tasks - of finding food and 
protecting society and such. Why he didn't see the obvious is the 
mystery of the century. But he went astray with his James "embrace" 
and from then on the course was set.  

In the meager hope that you will understand

Bodvar