[MD] New Model Army, Mystic(DQ) Experience, and Religion (SQ) as Power

[gav]

hey dave,

> 
> gav said:
> the MOQ is an explicit metaphysics with a mystical
> (implicit) 
> summit/centre/source. the MOQ has a spiritual
> dimension: 'spirit' implying a 
> higher order or intelligence at work. **does anyone
> disagree with this?
> 
> dmb says:
> I use words like "spiritual" when talking about the
> MOQ, but feel like I 
> gotta be very careful with it. In the Copleston
> annotations, Pirsig objects 
> to the notion of theistic god, to the human soul
> (except as a literary 
> expression) and he objects to the idea of a "spirit"
> insofar as it is 
> concieved as something supernatural. And I think its
> not very hard to see 
> why he might object to these theological concepts.
> 
> But I think we do need a word that refers to forms
> of consciousness that go 
> beyond conventional thinking. Following Ken Wilber,
> I see spirituality as 
> the higher end of cognitive development, something
> that is supposed to take 
> us beyond logic and rationality. So, yea, I'd say it
> implies a higher order 
> of intelligence, but its a natural, human
> intelligence and not a seperate or 
> supernatural being.
> 
> How's that?

mostly okay with me. little bit of anthropomorphism
crept in at the end though. i don't think i can
comfortably call that higher implicit order - human.

  i agree that the intelligence is not separate; it is
however supernatural, in the sense that it is both
within, contains and is beyond the natural (sensual)
world. the Tao is manifest in the life and relations
of nature, but the Tao is also an implicit logic or
intelligence that gives rise to nature. in which sense
it is *super*natural:  'Super' in that it is above and
beyond the manifest natural world.

 the Tao is the  implicate order that becomes
explicate in an infinite cascade of quality events in
manifest reality.


as far as soul goes i think it is something you
*develop* (or don't develop if you watch too much TV).

rather than existing ab initio, a la dogmatic
christianity, the soul is brought into existence
through a process of guided self-observation (taken
almost word for word from 'the meaning of life').

'soul' is essentially a measure of how much you are
tuned in to the Tao. those with soul are relaxed,
natural, rhythmic but also feel passionately.

i wasn't fully aware of bob being wary of any theistic
overtones with the MOQ. any static theistic entity is
going to necessarily fall short of the mark, unless
its 'metaphor only' status is continually reinforced.
i do think the MOQ has much valuable common ground
with eastern and western religious traditions; and
moreover the MOQ provides us with a perspective from
which we can better comprehend these traditions, in a
true spiritual (non-linear logic/koan-like)sense. 

i guess i want to reinforce the importance of common
ground here. i don't want to alienate anyone who has
decided to use a deity as a touchstone for their own
quality and development; everything is a metaphor
anyway....it's just about the quality of the
metaphors. there are many high quality religious
metaphors as well as scientific ones...and if you are
wary of the theists wait till the logical positivists
hit!!

love and fairy kisses
g

 


> 
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN
> Search! 
>
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
> 
> > moq_discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
>
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/


Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com