[MD] Quantum Physics

[PhaedrusWolff at carolina.rr.com]

Hi SA) Sorry for getting a bit confused on the replies. I looked, but 
missed this reply while rushing to get through the emails -- no 
excuse. 

>     [Chin]
> > You do not have the Ego, or affirming the Ego, and
> > once you pay the 
> > price in both time and money to the Grade & Diploma
> > system, you don?t 
> > want someone coming along and telling you what
> > intellectual means; you earned it.
> 
>     Yes.  Exactly.  Experiencing quiet, this is how I
> interpret and use the language of MoQ, for the sake of
> an MoQ community that is familiar with the language.  
>     What is Nothing is Moral?  What is this first(?)
> static latch?  Moral latching to nothing?  Nothing
> latching to moral?  How can these latch to each other
> when nothing is apart of this latch?  How can
> 'something' latch to nothing?  It doesn't.  So, what
> is this split, if not the 'first' static latch?  Might
> this realization be a realization that is not getting
> stuck?  Code of art:  true self:  realizing itself,
> thus, quality realizing itself.  Yet, the realization
> is not sticking.  The realization is not attaching. 
> Either quality is not seeing itself, or quality can't
> see itself.  No-self is true self.  I've heard 'an eye
> cannot see itself', and this is true.  This is
> working.  This seems to fit nicely.  Suspend the ego,
> might you elaborate on 'suspend the ego', please?
> 
Chin) Suspending the ego would simply be recognizing, or building in 
yourself humility. It would be recognizing you do not know, any more 
than anyone else knows. The professor, preacher or friend, or even 
experience doesn’t offer knowledge, but only hints toward advancing 
your search for knowledge. And by knowledge, you can’t point to the 
levels and sq/DQ and call this knowledge. This is only a way of 
looking at things. The systematic understanding of MOQ is not Quality. 
It may be a quality understanding of how the world works, but Quality 
must be lived. The ego holds you back, as the more you develop the 
ego, the less you are capable of allowing dynamic quality in. 

> SA)    Yes, interest.  The heart of quality, eh? 
> Children already experience it, they don't know it,
> but they live it.  What they are living they don't
> want to lose, it's just how it is for them.  Then, as
> many who grow-up in this culture, one day they grow-up
> and feel as if they lost something.  They go
> searchin', but it's this ego pullin' here and here and
> over there, sayin' we've got the answer.  MoQ only
> sticks for me, cause I'm enjoying this MoQ discuss
> website.  If this wasn't here, I wouldn't be trying to
> use this language.  I'd still be quiet, but without a
> community, one that says, "You know what quality is."
> in other words, one that says you already are it,
> whatever that 'it' might be, or else we'd have to
> constantly be lookin' outside ourselves.  That's the
> ego you mentioned.  Zen is 'original mind'.  Quality
> can't be spoken.  Well, then, if it can't be spoken,
> then it must already be here.  When I am quiet, that
> quiet is 'something' here I can control by choosing to
> be quiet, finding the best position sitting or
> geographically to position.  It is as fire.  Fire is
> wild, free, and here on its' own accord.  Yet, I can
> choose where to have the best fire to enjoy.
> 
Chin) 
Meditation, prayer in Christianity, is a form of purification. This is 
suspending the ego. It is the same the elders of the Native Americans 
did with the assistance of peyote. It is the same experience Timothy 
Leary went through with LSD, and Freud with cocaine. The Harvard 
projects Timothy Leary went through are probably close to what the 
elders of the Mazetec of Mexico went through, but it was a controlled 
setting, a controlled experiment for them. What came later with the 
hippies was without control or understanding. 

You have to ask; What was it Leary and the Injuns experienced? Per the 
MOQ, this would be Quality. But then you have to ask; What is Quality? 
I would say Quality is the same as Nothingness of Ancient Zen, Dharma 
of the Hindus, Mother Earth of the Injuns, and Soul of the Christians. 
Yes, the children have this, prior to our taking it away from them; 
prior to our building logic and Aristotelian pointing at things as 
knowledge. 

SA). 
> 
>     I'm all for independence.  I've spoken about this
> on this MoQ discuss.  Ultimately, why a need for
> government - cause people can't take care of
> themselves.  Other people in other countries who can't
> control themselves and want to kill to get their point
> across, they are not finding the best position for
> their fire.  They can't control their fire, their
> quiet.  Heck they notice peace and think it can kill. 
> Education system is just the same.  This culture needs
> people ready made to fit the bill, to construct the
> ego (the giant), and are not realizing that all the
> wisdom in the world was realized by these people who
> heard this true self.  Methods are rampant.  Yoga and
> meditation are in style.  Yet, it is all for the home.
> Society has problems that these solvers can't fit the
> bill.  The cultural immune system I believe Pirsig
> called it.
> 
Chin) Agree.  The East is not immune to this “Church of Reason.” The 
cultures of China, Japan, India are all changing, as America has led 
the way with their success of Capitalism. Why do we go to school? -- 
so we can be successful -- so we can get a better job, make lots of 
money! As a for instance, the martial arts schools of China are 
diminishing, giving way to schools that enlist ten thousand or more 
students each to learn the movements without any ‘Art’ or spirituality 
involved, just mechanical fighting, so they can work for the 
government -- be successful, get a job, make lots of money!

We once claimed “Buy American, it is of a higher Quality.” This 
Quality has gone out in favor of Price. -- to increase the bottom line 
of Corporate America, and quite possible the rest of the world as 
well. 

SA)
>     That's what independence is.  That's what ridding
> the ego is.  Rid the superiorities.  Does this mean
> rid experts or masters?  No, it means I can go to the
> library and learn.  It means I can stay at home and
> learn.  It means I can talk to somebody and learn
> something.  This couldn't happen quickly.  The changes
> would have to be established already, don't you think?
> The changes would need to be a choice.  And then
> people walk towards the changes.  Our effort needs to
> be made solid, allowed to go somewhere.
> 
Chin) This is why I like Quality. Concentrating on Quality is all that 
is needed to change us. Concentrating on Quality, looking at ourselves 
down deep in no more than self-observation would lead us to a better 
Quality life. We know what Quality is, and as opposed to walking 
through life in a mechanical sleep-walk, just paying attention to our 
nature would improve our nature. 

Consider you go to work five days a week, and you concern yourself 
with someone else not doing their job, someone else making more money 
than you do, someone being favored by the boss. These are all egoistic 
statements. If you concern yourself with the job you do, this is 
Quality; this is suspending the ego, and getting on with your life. 
 
SA)
> 
>     Yeah, the dogma.  The accept the ego, the ideas
> of others.  It's funny, but many, if not all, of the
> so-called great thinkers of the West say something
> along the lines of 'Know yourself' (Aristotle himself,
> right)  Yet, all these great thinkers are those
> advocating thinking for oneself, being free, and such.
> Yet, constraints exist in this current culture, and
> yet, that's what all the great thinkers said, also. 
> Pirsig called this the giant.  Pirsig said intellect
> is to control giant.  Another word for control, in the
> sense I mean it, is focus.  How do you define
> speculation?
> 
Chin) I personally would simply define speculation as openness to new 
ideas, new thoughts. Others may define it as giving into ideas, new 
thoughts without empirical backing, but then I would have to ask, What 
is empirical backing? -- someone else said it before you did? This to 
me would be giving into static quality. 

SA)
> 
>     So, in the West, must it be, a must, for Westerns
> to study Zen, or eastern philosophy in order to shock
> the Western intellect out of its' box.  Could the West
> get out of its' box on its' own?  Sure, quiet is here
> in wait, always present, but will the West recognize
> quality, nothingness, and quiet on its' own.  Pirsig
> learned from the East.  Pirsig knew about the
> Amerindians.  Is the West a square peg, and the East
> or Amerindians a circle peg?  Could the only fit, be
> that the square peg would either have to be influenced
> by Amerindians or East?  Or, maybe the West would have
> to start over to know quality, nothingness, and quiet.
> Without comparisons, would the Western intellect ever
> be able to know these without influence or without
> starting over?
> 
Chin) 
The American Indians may have been closer to the center of things in 
the 70s, but this does not hold true now -- they are starving. The 
East may have been more at the center of things, but this does not 
hold true now either. It is not only the West, America may have been 
the leader, the influence that is changing the world, with its 
Capitalism, but the world is changing to the more mechanical 
existence, and we might blame it on America. But, then again, 
Capitalism may feed the world. 

If this is true, it may be America that leads the way. It would not be 
our government that is capable of doing this, and we can’t revert back 
to the thinking of “Turn on, tune in, and drop out” of the Leary days, 
or Dogmatic religion.  

I don’t think it is Christianity or Zen that holds the difference. I’m 
not sure, but it seems Ancient Zen is not accepted in the East as much 
as it once was.

It may just be a new way of thinking, a thinking that can include 
religion, art, education and politics in a better way of life. Quality 
fits, but it would not be “What can Quality do for me?” It would be 
how can I improve the lot of man, how “We” can improve the lot of man 
as opposed to “Me.”  

It may be in the idea of the American Indian, “Mother Earth, Father 
Sun.’ The dragonfly may be a good example. The dragonfly improves the 
environment in which it lives in order to be. This may be why the 
dragonfly has been around as long as it has. (notice the word “may” in 
that sentence? This is speculation? -- the fact I admit I cannot know 
this?) 

We can take our lead from the American Indian and Zen Masters of 
Ancient Zen, but it may be more simple than this. Maybe all we need do 
is recognize “we are only a part of a whole; a universe” as Einstein 
put it, a dynamic scientist that comes to a conclusion such as this. 
We may not be the center of the universe, but we may not be any less 
important than the Sun, Saturn or the skin cell that holds us 
together. 

Suspending the ego would be more than just stripping away the false 
layers of self society has built upon us, but recognizing we don’t 
know well enough to claim religion or science is inferior to one or 
the other. The success of America was not dependent on science or 
religion, but the soul of America, and interrelation to all its parts -
- a people who felt connected. Suspending the ego would also mean in 
order to improve ourselves, we have to improve with everyone, that 
everyone is more important than our one little self, as one skin cell 
is only as important as all that cover the body. 

It would not be the West to study Zen per se, but the West realizing 
it is all one soul, including all different religions and traditions 
that now make up the West. The reason America was born was to get away 
from the British Brute, and the Church that ruled our thinking. 
Freedom in America was not only freedom to become whatever you want to 
be, but freedom to believe, to worship, or not, as comes from within. 
No religion or philosophy should lead, but all should come together, 
as the whole is greater than the one. It is what our Constitution was 
built on, and it was influenced by the American Indian’s way of 
thinking as well. Our founding fathers recognized their limitations 
and dogmatic reasoning, otherwise the constitution would have never 
been. 

Wow! I’ve said so much without saying anything, but I’ll leave it 
here, as it is my thinking through it, so you can see how I think. 

Suspending the ego just simply means you cannot be right any more than 
anyone else can. Per this line of thinking, Quality would be no better 
than Nothingness, Buddha or God for that matter. You would find 
Quality in Nothingness, Buddha, God, science, philosophy, all.