[MD] Where have all the values gone?

[Platt Holden]

Hi David M,

PH: 
> > I think imposing equality would be an example of a social value
> attempting
> > to devour an intellectual value. The evidence is overwhelming that
> people
> > are not equal.
 
> DM: Imposing? Who said that?

Seems you'd like to see the tax code changed to accomplish your desired 
social end of equality. That's "imposing" isn't it? Do I have a choice NOT
to pay taxes?

DM:
> I am just saying how I will vote, I hope
> to
> persuade and gain majority.

Gain a majority to impose new taxes on the minority? Sounds to me like you
support a social moral code against an intellectual code.

DM:
> I would like to improve the social level to
> enhance the foundation that the 4th level builds on. You know if
> society
> breaks down the 4th levelis stuffed, that's my fear.EspeciallyasI am a
> book
> not a flash car man. Yes people are not equal, access to resources
> certainly
> could be though I see no need to go that far, I just think we need more
> equality
> of income not exactly equal. The reason: fear that we are pissing our 
> society down
> the drain.

I don't see that society is going down the drain because incomes aren't more
equal. If it's going down the drain it's because, as Pirsig says, the
intellectual system we use says we live in a purposeless, meaningless
universe where morals are culturally determined and relative, having no
rational basis at all. 

PH:
> > We have a number of non-profit companies available to anyone who
> chooses 
> > to
> > work for them.

DM: 
> DM: Yes, and we should have more, I vote that we tax the former more
> and
> help the set up of the latter.

Vote to impose? Not me. Not without carefully considering the cost to 
individual freedom. 

DM:
> >> Tax is for Govn stuff not profits.

PH:
> > Unless I make a profit, the government has nothing to tax. If I my 
> > business
> > expenses equaled or exceeded my income last year, I don't owe any
> tax.
 

> DM: Profit is a tax applied to workers and divided up between govn and
> capital owners.

Much of profit is reinvested in the business to buy new capital equipment
and/or expand markets.

DM:
> Interest protects capital from inflation, why should
> it?
> Capital should run down over time like any other natural thing.
> Who elsevotes for zero interest rates and no more dividends?

Sorry, don't understand. Can you explain how interest protects capital from
inflation? And why capital ought to run down over time?

DM:
> >> We should admit how much we tax
> >> staff by not pretending some of their work is profits which are then
> >> taxed.
> >

PH:
> > I'm in favor of eliminating personal income tax if that's what you
> mean.
 
> DM: Well if profits were not extracted from our pay to pay the govn and
> owners of
> capital we would really see how much we are being taxed and could
> really
> help fight the against state spending waste & really decide how it gets
> spent.

I agree. If the goverment is going to tax income, it should not withhold 
taxes from pay. Instead, once a year each worker would have to pay what he
owes Uncle Sam. Then we'd really see a tax revolt, and be able to get rid of
 all those wasteful government programs.

> >> DM: When you die you can no longer own money. Why should your
> children
> >> have it. Maybe you should have to spend it all before you die
> instead.
> >> Else
> >> it is just burnt with your body.

PH:
> > Why shouldn't I be free to dispose of my wealth as I see fit? Why is
> it
> > immoral to leave money to my kids? Why is it moral for you or somebody
> > else
> > to decide how my money ought to be spent?
 
> DM: Who are you to say what happens with money left on earth
> when you die? Let's face it your dead and you can't say what you think.
> A static dead will is not very DQ. Why should your kids get handouts
> from
> you? Are they hopeless or lazy?

Who am I to say? It's my money. I can say what I think ought to happen to it
while I'm alive. Who knows, I may will it all the charity. Why should
anybody get handouts from anybody else as you propose with your scheme to
make incomes more equal?

> >> DM: That's what I am saying! We only have to work so much because
> stuff
> >> costs so much because someone is adding unnecessary profits to the
> >> price!

PH:
> > Why shouldn't the producer be free to charge for his product or
> service
> >whatever the free market will pay?
> 
> DM: Fact is we are squeezing the profits out of business every day.
> Fact is that's going tomake it implode as a system.
 
Who is squeezing the profits out of business? The government? 
If so, we agree. 

> > PH:
> >> > Finally, I can think of no other economic system that has provided
> as
> >> much
> >> > leisure time to the citizenery than free market capitalism.

> >> DM: True, yet we could have more now if we ditch profits!

PH:
> > Without profits there's little incentive to produce.

> DM: Ever heard of being paid to work, it is quite different
> from over charging to pay capital to be protected from inflation,
> a very anti-dynamic business practise.

Who pays someone to work? Somebody who has made a profit, that's who. Unless
my company makes a profit, I can't afford to hire anybody. 

PH:
> > By eliminating profits, I see losses in taxes and incentives to
> produce. I
> > also see some losses of freedom. Most importantly, profits support
> the
> > police and military who keep dangerous biological forces at bay.
 
> DM: Taxes pay for police not profits, no profits equalt more pay,
> more pay covers the tax problem, & more
> pay sounds like a good incentive to me. And if there was more global
> equality perhaps we could give up war and spend all the tank and
> bombs money on nice things.

Taxes come from profits. Pay comes from profits. More pay can only come from
more profits. And if the globe was a peaceful place, full of people like you
and me who wouldn't hurt a fly even though we know others are better off
financially than us, then we could give up war and reduce what we spend now
 on the police and military. Which is like the old adage, "If wishes were
horses, beggars would ride." :-)

Platt
   
 


-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/