[MD] Where have all the values gone?

[Platt Holden]

Hi David M:

PH: 
> > Seems you'd like to see the tax code changed to accomplish your desired
> > social end of equality. That's "imposing" isn't it? Do I have a choice NOT
> > to pay taxes?
> 
> DM: I see it as intellectual level control of the 3rd level. It is a call to
> citizen values, yes it restrains individual shortsightedness for the sake
> of sustaining the 3rd and 4th levels. I recommend a careful read of Roger
> Scruton's The West and the Rest.

I thought we agreed that intellect knows people aren't equal. Further, intellect
cannot predict the shortsightedness of individuals. Finally, for the intellectual
level the highest "citizen value" is freedom from social control. 

> > Gain a majority to impose new taxes on the minority? Sounds to me like you
> > support a social moral code against an intellectual code.
> 
> DM: What is intellectual about amassing wealth?

Freedom from social control.

> > I don't see that society is going down the drain because incomes aren't 
> > more
> > equal. If it's going down the drain it's because, as Pirsig says, the
> > intellectual system we use says we live in a purposeless, meaningless
> > universe where morals are culturally determined and relative, having no
> > rational basis at all.
> 
> DM: Is it not anti-relativist to say that we have to limit our individual
> inclinations for the sake of higher ends, i.e. sustaining the 3rd level
> and enabling the 4th. New idea: Is the construction of political
> machinery not a 4th level rather than 3rd level SQ type? Again see
> Sruton.

I'd rather read you version of why limiting individual freedom is moral rather than
Scruton's. The framers of the Constitutiion constructed the political machinery of
the social level.

> > Vote to impose? Not me. Not without carefully considering the cost to
> > individual freedom.
> 
> DM: The question here is not about imposing, but trying to promote
> citizen values where we see our freedom asgrounded in the sort
> of society we are making together.Your right leaning views are not well
> thought out, again see Scruton for some education.

Why don't you tell us what Scruton means by "citizen values." 

> > Much of profit is reinvested in the business to buy new capital equipment
> > and/or expand markets.
> 
> DM: Investments do not show up in profits, they go to the balance sheet
> you know.

There can be no investments without profits whether profits show up on a piece of
paper or not.

> > DM:
> >> Interest protects capital from inflation, why should
> >> it?
> >> Capital should run down over time like any other natural thing.
> >> Who elsevotes for zero interest rates and no more dividends?
> >
> > Sorry, don't understand. Can you explain how interest protects capital 
> > from
> > inflation? And why capital ought to run down over time?
> 
> DM: You put $100 dollars in the bank for five years, they pay you interest
> so that in five years time you can still buy the same amount of goods with 
> your $500
> plus interest. This is not necessary. You should be punished for making no 
> use of it.
> All other assets run down over time unless worked on. Interest is a peculiar 
> idea.

Why shouldn't I collect interest on money I risk by loaning it to you for your use?
Are you looking for a free lunch?

> > Who am I to say? It's my money. I can say what I think ought to happen to 
> > it
> > while I'm alive. Who knows, I may will it all the charity. Why should
> > anybody get handouts from anybody else as you propose with your scheme to
> > make incomes more equal?
> 
> DM: Say what you like ypou'll be dead, do dead men get votes? Maybe your 
> common
> sense is making you screwy on this one.

Huh? What do votes have to do with distributing my money as I see fit? I'll ignore
the "screwy" remark.
 
> >> DM: Fact is we are squeezing the profits out of business every day.
> >> Fact is that's going tomake it implode as a system.
> >
> > Who is squeezing the profits out of business? The government?
> > If so, we agree.
> 
> DM: And consumers, and eventually it will all crash in on us.

How are consumers squeezing profits by seeking the best deal in a free market? Last I
looked the economy was booming.

> >> DM: Ever heard of being paid to work, it is quite different
> >> from over charging to pay capital to be protected from inflation,
> >> a very anti-dynamic business practise.
> >
> > Who pays someone to work? Somebody who has made a profit, that's who. 
> > Unless
> > my company makes a profit, I can't afford to hire anybody.
> 
> DM: Who makes the profit, owners or workers? Come on? But I
> grant that some owners do some work,they should get paid for that.
> Imagine there are no dividends or interest, everything else can carry on
> as normal, apart from who is making the decisions.

Owners and workers collaborate to make a profit.

> > Taxes come from profits. Pay comes from profits.
> 
> DM: Profits are deducted from the pay and passed to shareholders
> who do no work.

Shareholders have invested their money in the business to make it possible for the
business to be profitable and pay workers.

>  More pay can only come from
> > more profits.
> 
> DM: More tax can come from pay if profits are not drawn off first.

So you are in favor of increasing income taxes and eliminating taxes on corporate
profits by eliminating profits?

> And if the globe was a peaceful place, full of people like you
> > and me who wouldn't hurt a fly even though we know others are better off
> > financially than us, then we could give up war and reduce what we spend 
> > now
> > on the police and military. Which is like the old adage, "If wishes were
> > horses, beggars would ride." :-)
> 
> DM: Good point, but I wonder how much violence is by those armed to the 
> teeth
> and trying to maintain their wealth against free trade, history, talent, 
> youth, etc.
> Perhaps a little fair play and sharing would be a cheaper form of 
> self-defence?
 
By fair play and sharing I gather you believe that redistributing wealth from those
that have more to those that have less would be a good thing. Is that what you think?
If so, on what moral grounds do you base such a belief?

Platt

   




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