[MD] The Fringe Factor

[Micah]

Platt,

If you die tonight, could you prove that your cat exists?

If your cat gets burned and yowls, what kind of pain is he feeling? Searing,
stabbing, tingling, aching? Since it is clear to you the pain he is feeling,
please describe the pain in detail. And while you're at it, I'm thinking of
a number between 1 and 100 - which number is it? Since you can read cats
minds, humans minds should be easy. Here's a hint - it's a high number.

Yes, I am an egoist. An egotist would assume to know the thoughts of other
animals, after assuming that they had thoughts. I don't.

I don't believe in god, however I do know that the past is part of man's
reality.

This is not either/or. Reality does not exist without us, and we do not
control reality.

I repeat - nothing can be shown to exist independent of humans. "Shown",
"evidence", "proof" imply humans.

To believe that something exists without evidence, or proof is called faith.
I don't have a faith, but apparently you do.


Micah


-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of pholden at davtv.com
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 5:29 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The Fringe Factor


Quoting Micah <micah at roarkplumbing.com>:

> Platt,
>
> We know your cat has freedom. Freedom is a human mental concept; not only
> does your cat not know it has freedom - it simply doesn't know. Knowing is
> another human mental concept.
>
> Here's an analogy -
>
> If I have a fire and in the fire is a rock and the fire has been burning
for
> an hour - is the rock hot?
>
> No - the rock is not hot, it is not anything but a rock. You are hot when
> you touch the rock and you may say the rock is hot, but the rock doesn't
> know what hot is. It is a rock. The rock's molecules have moved apart and
> are moving, and a thermostat may read a high temperature, but the rock is
> not hot. Hot is a mental concept we have and have placed on the rock. That
> is an example of anthropomorphizing. Saying animals think is the same. We
> think, and anthropomorphize the universe.
>
> Think is an extremely complex concept. If animals think, that would
include,
> jealousy, whimsy, wistfulness, melancholy, outrage, empathy,
deliriousness,
> longing, to name but a few. How can animals that "think" remain static?
>
> You may say, my cat thinks but in a limited range. You have decided your
cat
> "thinks" and even his range of thought, but your not anthropomorphizing?
>
> Can you begin to see that man is the measure of all things?
>
> Micah

My cat doesn't think by manipulating symbols and forming concepts like
humans do.
But, it's clear it is aware and that it experiences. It will avoid a
hot rock and will yowl in pain if burned just as you and I will. To believe
my cat exists because I observe him (idealism) is the height of human
egocentricity. If I die tonight, my cat will still demand to be fed in the
morning.The world was here long before you and I arrived on the scene
and will continue long after we are gone.  The evidence is conclusive that
existence exists on its own, not by our permission, unless you believe that
God
planted skeletons and other fossils just to fool everybody, or that the dead
are
still observing us from on high. Man is the measure of a lot, but not
everything.
But, I could be wrong.

Best,
Platt




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