[MD] A formalised Code of Art

[Dan Glover]

Hello everyone

>From: Squonkonguitar at aol.com
>Reply-To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>Subject: Re: [MD] A formalised Code of Art
>Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 09:55:24 EDT
>
>Hello everyone
>
>Hi Mark
>
>The poem we're discussing is a zen  poem.
>
>Mark 15-10-06b: Hello Dan.
>I've tried to track this poem down but i can't find it anywhere.
>Can you help?

I have a paperback called THE ZEN GARDEN: OLD ZEN STORIES that has the poem 
in it. It is attributed to a Chinese monk named Bunon who lived in the 10th 
century. The poem is part of a longer zen story.

Alan Watts discusses the poem in his book:

http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/items/isbn/1-57062-940-4.cfm?selectedText=EXCERPT_CHAPTER

I've seen several different translations on the web. You might want to check 
out these links too:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3692/is_200607/ai_n16597922/pg_32

http://www.tlc.ac.nz/newsletters/aug2_02.html


>If this is a Zen poem it doesn't change the circumstances of culture the
>Buddha was born into.

The way I understand it the Buddha was born into a wealthy family and his 
father purposely kept him from seeing the "real" world outside the family 
compound. When the Buddha did discover the suffering it troubled him so 
greatly that he left his family and the wealth that was rightfully his and 
set out looking for answers. After many travails and dangers he finally 
realized that there were no teachers who could answer his questions. He had 
to look inside himself. And he awoke one day. It is a timeless story that 
transcends culture, imo.

>
>Dan:
>Support for what? You're the one saying RMP  is wrong, not me.
>
>Mark 15-10-06b: It's a suggestion. I'm not 100% certain.
>And before this gets out of hand, may i remind you precisely what i am
>uncertain about?
>1. The poem. (I've not been able to track it down. I mistakenly referred to
>it as a Buddhist poem in previous posts, but it is referred to as a,  
>'famous'
>poem in Lila)

"When early Western investigators first read the Buddhist texts they too 
interpreted nirvana as some kind of suicide." (LILA, preceding sentence)

There is no mistake here. It is a Buddhist poem, albeit a translation. There 
is no need to repeat this in the next sentence (of the book).

>2. The MoQ translation of the poem.
>OK so far Dan?

Conditionally.

>A. If Lila is, 'Intellectually she's nowhere' (Lila) then she can't kill
>intellectual patterns. And yet, the MoQ translation is introduced at the 
>point
>where Lila's need for ritual is being discussed.

"It was the first time he'd ever seen her look down like that. That's what 
was so sad to see. The thing that was most attractive about her was that 
straight-forward, eyes-ahead look of someone who's honest to themself, 
whatever others might think. Now that was gone. It meant she was turning 
back to the static patterns she came from. She's sold out. The system beat 
her. It's made a crook out of her at last." (LILA)

Note the phrase "someone who's honest to themself, whatever others might 
think." Lila has an honest intellectual respect for herself and that's what 
makes her so attractive to Phaedrus. Now she is reverting to the static 
patterns of value that she came from - static social patterns of value that 
hold Lila in place and keep her from believing in herself. Patterns that say 
she is intellectually nowhere. But Lila thinks for herself! At least, she 
did.

>B. The culture the Buddha was born in to is lacking in intellectual  
>patterns
>- it is a culture of severe religious rituals - so one may question why  
>the
>Buddha would advocate, in MoQ terms, killing intellectual patterns.

That is RMP's translation. There are many others.

>Now then, i have made a mistake, because apparently this poem is not part  
>of
>the Pali canon!
>For this i apologise. I've been a source of confusion and it stinks.
>Having said that, we are still left with the poem's relationship to  Lila.

Good of you to apologize old chap.

>
>Dan:
>I should think
>it is up to you to provide support. Just read LILA and  you will have my
>support. Let's have a vote. Does Mark owe us some support  here? All in
>favor, raise your hands...
>
>Mark 15-10-06b: I see. Kangaroo court time is it?
>And while we're at it, those wishing to vote may like to comment on my
>ability, or lack of, to construct a fair argument, even if it turns  out to 
>be a
>hill of beans. dmb has reservations about this poem's MoQ  translation and 
>has
>expressed his willingness to lend agreement.
>Please, let's not turn this into a shouting match.

"I'm sorry Dan. I do not have any support to lend weight to my thesis."

"Oh that's okay Mark. No problem at all."

(That wasn't too bad was it?)

>
><snip>
>
> >Mark 15-10-06: All i'm saying is the Buddha  utilised intellectual 
>patterns.
> >He also stressed one see for oneself -  empirical  experience.
>
>Dan:
>We agree.
>
>Mark 15-10-06b: There. That wasn't too bad was it?

Yeah. But lets move ahead...

>
> >Mark  15-10-06: Simple: The early Buddhist teachings - those said to be  
>the
> >Pali canon - utilise intellectual patterns to undermine social  patterns.
> >They did so in a particular cultural setting which to a great  degree 
>shape
> >them in the first place.
> >This is not to say don't  have value in other cultural  contexts.
>
>Dan:
>Yes but that isn't to what the poem refers.
>
>Mark 15-10-06b: It seems you are correct. I thought the poem was referred  
>to
>as a Buddhist poem in Lila, but it is referred to as a famous poem.
>I've tried to track it down but can't find it.

Good luck with your search.

>If the poem had been something the Buddha said, my arguments still  stand.
>And, they apply to Lila, who lacks intellectual patterns - she can't kill
>that which she does not have.

In her fugue state Lila has reverted to biological and social patterns of 
value that are comfortable to her. She's ceased to function on an 
intellectual level.

>Questions still remain regarding the MoQ translation of the  poem.

The poem is difficult to translate and there are many levels to the 
translations.

>
> >Mark 15-10-06: It seems to me you enjoy passing yourself off as  a 500
> >book-a-year polymath and sage with Craig Sterling like powers to  
>assimilate
> >information, who can read a page almost as fast as he turns  it. Well, i
> >would
> >suggest moving up from the 'Janet and John'  blue book series and give,
> >'Spot's
> >first Christmas' a  go.
>
>Dan:
>Hey, anyone can learn to speed read, or haven't you heard? And  you're the
>one who has several academic degrees, right? Mark, Mark, Mark.  Don't you
>know I love you? Why are you being like this to me? You're going  to make 
>me
>cry. Is that what you want?
>
>Mark 15-10-06b: One degree Dan. I've told you a Million times to stop
>exaggerating.

And here you had me thinking that you had a sense of humor...

>
> >ps remember boys and girls: drugs are   wrong!
> >
> >Mark 15-10-06: Where the hell has this come from  Dan?
>
>Dan:
>Platt's peyote smoking. Yeah I know I am cross posting but as they  say in
>France... mangez mes shorts. At least I'm not sending 187 posts a  day...
>right?
>
>Mark 15-10-06b: Am i to take it you regard me as some sort of Platt  
>figure?
>Goodness gracious!

I just thought you might have been partaking.


















>Love,
>Mark
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